Dr Robin Bignall    780109 Thu, 18 Dec 03 12:21 AM "Strange: that looks as though it ought to mean "Good ... Tag". Now I'm wondering whether I ever heard "Guten Vormittag"." "I wouldn't think so. "Guten Abend" is used for the evening, though, and "Guten Morgen" for the morning. Latvian follows the same convention. In English I use "Good morning", "Good afternoon", and "Good evening", but never "Good day" or any abbreviated form of that." "Good day" is very Australian. The nearest I can get to illustrating how they pronounce it is "G'die". wrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England Dr Robin Bignall Countries, United Kingdom, Great Britain, Languages

	Mike Stevens    599852 Thu, 18 Dec 03 01:36 AM "In article , Robert Bannister (Email Removed) writes" "Yeah, you get overprecise people doing that over here ... I can't imagine an East Ender saying "Good afternoon" either." "No, they would simply say 'ar'ernoon with glottal stops on the '" That is if they didn't say "wotcher", which I'd consider much more likely. Mind you, nowadays they'd be just as likely to say something like "hi" or "yo". -- Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk No man is an island. So is Man. Mike Stevens Glottals, Articles, Idioms

	Mike Stevens    599867 Thu, 18 Dec 03 01:47 AM "Talking about East Enders: on another thread, there was mention ... End of London, as is "yer" for "year" (another Queenism)." "Only amongst people of a certain age. I couldn't imagine a young East Ender saing "orf"." My late grandmother (born in the 19th century) used to say "orf". She was a South Londoner rather than an East. In her day there were a number of similarities between the demotic speech of London and the hyperlect of the aristocratic classes. "Huntin', shootin'; and fishin'" is another classic example. Now most of those things (including "orf") have disappeared from demotic London speech, and the aristocratic hyperlect is much rarer. The Queen's version of it has become much weaker than it use to be. Prince Philip still exhibits a good example of it, and Price Charles a lesser one, but still stronger than his mother's. "Yer" for "year", however, is very common in London (and possibly elsewhere but I pass on that), but does to some extent depend on the stress pattern of the sentence in which it appears. I, for example, would probably say "in two yeers, time" but "a couple of yers ago". -- Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk No man is an island. So is Man. Mike Stevens Idioms

	Mike Stevens    599892 Thu, 18 Dec 03 02:06 AM "It seems pretty standard here in California. In fact, if someone says "Good morning", and realizes that it is, in fact, just after noon, they will often correct themselves to "Good afternoon"." Yeagh! A nasty usage (far too prevalent on both sides of the Atlantic). Just because it is after noon, that does not prevent it from being morning. There are two quite separate ways of dividing the day. On the one hand there's the distinction between the forenoon and the afternoon (which is self-explanatory). "Forenoon" is now pretty well obsolete except in the maritime phrase "the forenoon watch", which itself is decidedly antiquated. On the other hand there's the division into "morning" and "evening" as in "And the morning and the evening was the first day" in the Authorised version (for leftpondians, that's the King James Version) of the Bible. Here the division between the two was the main meal of the day, whose customary timing has varied a lot with place and century. Once the main meal, "dinner", had migrated to relatively late in the day, a secondary meal "lunch" or "luncheon" was introduced earlier in the day. Somebody (I think it was a character in one of Thomas Love Peacock's novels) in the early nineteenth century said something like "I like to take luncheon at around noon, thus giving two long divisions of the morning", which is evidence of how the word "morning" was used at that time - clearly it included the period between luncheon and dinner. -- Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk No man is an island. So is Man. Mike Stevens Idioms, TSE

	Enrico C    599893 Thu, 18 Dec 03 02:21 AM Mike Stevens | uk.culture.language.english,alt.usage.english,it.cultura.linguistica. inglese in "It seems pretty standard here in California. In fact, if ... after noon, they will often correct themselves to "Good afternoon"." "Yeagh! A nasty usage (far too prevalent on both sides of the Atlantic). Just because it is after noon, that does not prevent it from being morning." Agreed. I don't like that either. Yet, it depends on what meaning you give to the word "morning". According to the Oxford Advanced Lerner's Dictionary, "morning" is "the early part of the day from the time when people wake up until midday or before lunch" I go with the "lunch" meaning, and to me "lunch time" is usually about 1 pm or later :) -- Enrico C ~ No native speaker Enrico C Idioms

	Enrico C    599911 Thu, 18 Dec 03 02:36 AM Mike Stevens | uk.culture.language.english,alt.usage.english,it.cultura.linguistica. inglese in Someone (FB on it.cultura.linguistica.inglese, an Italian newsgroup about the English language) noticed that the Queen speaks as though she had a face-lift :)) and that to speak as she does "you have to move your lips as less as possible"! Then, he noticed her unusal way of saying words such as "So", "Over", "Hat", "House", "Issue" or "Tissue". Would you agree with him? "Only amongst people of a certain age. I couldn't imagine a young East Ender saing "orf"." "My late grandmother (born in the 19th century) used to say "orf". She was a South Londoner rather than an East. In her day there were a number of similarities between the demotic speech of London and the hyperlect of the aristocratic classes." Why was that? ""Huntin', shootin'; and fishin'" is another classic example. Now most of those things (including "orf") have disappeared from demotic London ... Philip still exhibits a good example of it, and Price Charles a lesser one, but still stronger than his mother's." Do Diana's children, William and Harry, speak that way too? ""Yer" for "year", however, is very common in London (and possibly elsewhere but I pass on that), but does to ... in which it appears. I, for example, would probably say "in two yeers, time" but "a couple of yers ago"." Very interesting :) -- Enrico C ~ No native speaker Enrico C Idioms, Pronunciation

	Apex    599922 Thu, 18 Dec 03 02:47 AM in message > "Yeagh! A nasty usage (far too prevalent on both sides of the Atlantic). Just because it is after noon, that ... not disputing your historical account of "morning", which differs from today's common assumptions and usage. Your post is very interesting." However, the Authorized Version, in the account of the genesis creation, speaks of "the evening and the morning" being the first day, second day, etc - not "the morning and the evening". This is in tune with the Hebrew cultural perception of the day commencing in the evening (about which time exactly there can be great dispute but it is around sunset). Thus Jewish people and other "seventh dayers" commence their seventh day observation on Friday evening at around sunset. The evening of the Bible, therefore, has little to do with traditional English customs of meals and divisions of day. -- Peg Apex Idioms

	Enrico C    599921 Thu, 18 Dec 03 02:51 AM Mike Stevens | uk.culture.language.english,alt.usage.english,it.cultura.linguistica. inglese in "In article , Robert Bannister (Email Removed) writes" Yep! "Buon pomeriggio" sounds weird in Italian as well :) In the UK? I thought that "Good day" was mostly used in Australian. "No, they would simply say 'ar'ernoon with glottal stops on the '" "That is if they didn't say "wotcher", which I'd consider much more likely." Just a few online dictionaries list it! wotcher interjection U.K. hello: hello (slang) (Late 19th century. A contraction of "what cheer.") (Encarta) wotcha, wotcher exclamation UK INFORMAL used as an informal greeting, especially between friends: Wotcha, mate! (from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary) "Mind you, nowadays they'd be just as likely to say something like "hi" or "yo"." -- Enrico C ~ No native speaker Enrico C Glottals, Articles, Idioms, Contractions