Elisabetta    613919 Tue, 13 Apr 04 06:59 PM Hello group! Could someone help with the following doubt I have? The context: a toast at a wedding. The toast starts "From your family and friends" I thought "familY and friends" made it sound as if the toast was coming from one of the couple's families rather than both families as I think the intention was. For that I was had a go at by someone saying that "family and friends" is an idiom that already means plurality (i.e: the members of the family, not just a person in the family). I tried to argue that if anything, family was a collective or group name meaning the plurality of the members in that one family, but it still sounds to me as it should be familIES if the intention is for the toast to come from both the groom's and the bride's families (and their friends). Am I completely wrong? Does the idiom "family and friends" mean any number of families connected to the persons it relates to? E Elisabetta Idioms, Relationships, Friendships, Writing, Context, Friends, Marriage, Weddings, Ceremonies

	Mike Stevens    613930 Tue, 13 Apr 04 09:51 PM "Hello group! Could someone help with the following doubt I have? The context: a toast at a wedding. The toast ... I completely wrong? Does the idiom "family and friends" mean anynumber of families connected to the persons it relates to?" Two thoughts : 1. "Family and friends" probably comes into the category of phrasesthat are too well known and need an occasional variant, so "families and friends" might be better. 2. (PEDANT) Assuming that the toast is at the reception, which is afterthe ceremony, then what has just happened has made the two families one (by marriage!), so "family and friends" would still technically be correct. If it were me making the speech, I might even make that point. (/PEDANT) Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk No man is an island. So is Man. Mike Stevens Idioms, Relationships, Friendships, Speaking, Context, Friends, Marriage, Speeches, Weddings, Ceremonies

	Elisabetta    613935 Tue, 13 Apr 04 10:42 PM "When they got married they became one family." And: "2. (PEDANT) Assuming that the toast is at the reception, which is after the ceremony, then what has just happened ... friends" would still technically be correct. If it were me making the speech, I might even make that point. (/PEDANT)" Jeezz... It must be that I was brought up in an environment that made the Montagues and Capulets look like amateurs, but I would never think of a wedding making one family of two! My family and my husband's (not that I have one - could that be why???) would be connected by our marriage, but they'd still be two different entities. Thanks for your answers :) E Elisabetta Relationships, Friendships, Speaking, Friends, Marriage, Speeches, Weddings, Ceremonies

	mUs1Ka    613937 Tue, 13 Apr 04 10:58 PM We are talking extended family here. Just like your cousins etc. are in separate families, they are part of your extended family. m. mUs1Ka Chat, Friendships, Speaking

	Elisabetta    613938 Tue, 13 Apr 04 11:18 PM "We are talking extended family here. Just like your cousins etc. are in separate families, they are part of your extended family." Well, yes, but with my cousins there is a blood line. For my children my family of origin and their father's family of origin would count as one as there are blood lines both ways, but that is not the case between me and my husband's family of origin and viceversa. Anyway, this is now going too OT, happy to continue in private if you like. E Elisabetta Relationships, Chat, Friendships, Speaking, Marriage

	Paul Vivash    613945 Wed, 14 Apr 04 08:03 AM "Hello group! Could someone help with the following doubt I have? The context: a toast at a wedding. The toast ... wrong? Does the idiom "family and friends" mean any number of families connected to the persons it relates to? E" This seems to be an unnecessarily complicated query. Firstly, a toast: "From your family and friends" is nonsense. When you propose a toast, the correct preposition is "To". Secondly what is included in the proposer's notion of the family is entirely an individual concept and would depend on the composition of the assembly. If they were all of the same family, he would use the singular; if they were not, he ought to use the plural. Paul Paul Vivash Plurals, Idioms, Relationships, Friendships, Writing, Context, Friends, Marriage, Prepositions, Weddings, Ceremonies

	Peter Duncanson    613951 Wed, 14 Apr 04 11:15 AM Proposing a toast tends to involve two stages. First, introductory words by the proposer - which might easily start "From...", second, the actual words to be repeated by the guests which will indeed be "To...". I may have been mistaken, but I assumed that "From family and friends" was the start of the proposal, rather than that of the toast itself. "Secondly what is included in the proposer's notion of the family is entirely an individual concept and would depend on ... all of the same family, he would use the singular; if they were not, he ought to use the plural." Peter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e) Peter Duncanson Plurals, Relationships, Friendships, Friends