In case

Hmm, interesting-- these seem even more identical than the first set, Paco. I think it is because the situation presented is more realistic (are tsunamis more realistic than picnics?)-- well, more immediate to my knowledge and consideration, so that I as listener do not analyze the speaker's grammar at all. I and speaker both have a very high awareness of tsunamis and their probabilities of occurrence at the moment, so language choice is irrelevant. On second reading, (1) shows the same higher expectation that I mentioned with the previous set.

Other threads have discussed moods and tenses, subjunctives and conditionals, probable and possible futures, so we needn't do that all over here-- 'will' vs 'would', etc. At English Forums, we enjoy deconstructing language, but the truth of the matter-- as we see by the grammatical arguments that rage and the range of a-grammatical examples that Google disgorges-- the truth of the matter is that much of English grammar is arbitrary, and has less to do with communication than we would like to think.

What would sound natural to me? 'If that kind of tsunami came to Japan tomorrow, Tokyo would be devastated.'

Paco: And I was told in school we had to translate the "should" conditional sentence into Japanese using the phrase man ga ichi ni. I was given a wrong instruction by our stubborn prescriptive teachers, maybe.

JT: Is this really what you were taught, Paco?

[expressing greater shock] Is this really what you have been taught, Paco?


And am I clear in my understanding that was/still is equated with "...a likelihood of one per ten million" in the minds of Japanese students?

Hello Mr M
I found an article as below given in the BBC English site. It says "If S should V" is a very unlikely conditional but The Heritage Grammar site suggests "If S should V" and "If S Vs" are not so different. The Heritage Grammar site suggests "If S should V" and "If S Vs" are not so different. So I guess there would be some difference between AmE and BrE regarding how to take the "should conditional."

BBC English says
if you should… / if you happen to…

Note that we use should in the if-clause in the first conditional if we want to suggest that something is very unlikely. We can use happen to in a similar way or even combine them: If you should / happen to change your mind about coming to the beach tomorrow, give me a ring. I don't expect him to, but if he should happen to show up, whatever you do, don't let him in!

But American Heritage Book of English Usage says
57. should

those beginning with if, can be tricky. In certain clauses, you use should for all three persons: if I (or you or he) should decide to go, if it should begin to snow. Would is not acceptable in these situations, but it does appear in other kinds of conditional clauses: He might surprise you if you would give him a chance. The best advice is to follow what sounds most natural. If you’re really not sure, try a verb form in the indicative: if it begins to snow. You can also try the subjunctive: if you were to give him a chance.

paco

Would you please tell us now the difference between 2) and 3) , then 3) and 4) ?

(2) If that kind of tsunami should come to Japan tomorrow, Tokyo will be devastated.
(3) If that kind of tsunami should come to Japan tomorrow, Tokyo would be devastated.
(4) If that kind of tsunami were to come to Japan tomorrow, Tokyo would be devastated.

Is the probability of a tsunami in Japan becoming greater when you move from 4) to 1) ?

>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hi Hela,

I believe, strongly, that your confusion lies in how conditionals are taught. Everyone seems to be operating from the perspective, mistaken though it is, that grammar determines what people want to say. It's the reverse; people decide what they want to say and then choose the appropriate grammar to express their feelings.

That these mixed conditionals exist and are used, frequently, shows how poorly this Concord of Tenses "rule" is at describing how English works. View this as a scale;

Reality/possibility side ------------------*****-------------------Non-reality/impossible side

present tense form used --------------mixes can occur---------------- past tense form used

Whether I [or any other speaker] choose 2, 3 or 4, or even,

(1) If that kind of tsunami comes to Japan tomorrow, Tokyo will/would be devastated.

doesn't depend on the actual fact situation relating to the probability of a tsunami coming to Japan. Most people, me included, are not that well informed on such topics.

Choosing a present tense FORM style reflects only that that particular speaker VIEWS the chance as greater, more of a realism. Again, this must be emphasized, it does not change the factual basis, it merely reflects a personal opinion, perhaps influenced by fears engendered by what happened recently.

Did you read the portion where I compared, "If I die tomorrow" versus "If I died tomorrow". Same thing. The actual chance is there for us all. For some the distance, if you will, on a scale between dying or not dying is much smaller, with the result that the choice of a present tense FORM versus a past tense FORM is more an either/or than a remote and distant possibility.

A pessimist may even announce and be fully grammmatical and correct,

"If I die tomorrow, I will/would ..."

even though there is nothing that would lead anyone to believe such a thing could happen or will happen.

Choosing certain structures is very often a reflection of our feelings; it should not be viewed as a reflection of the actual facts.

If you should be interested in my proposal, please contact me.

JT: I discussed this with a Japanese colleague, Paco, and the impression I'm left with is, translation is a bad way to learn a language. Is this not more of an idiom than a literal, one in 10,000 meaning?

This is a social but arguably there is a connection to level of certainty, to its meaning that matches . The speaker, instead of saying, with 100% certainty

You are interested in my proposal so contact me. ,

softens it by allowing that it isn't a 100% certainty the proposal will be accepted. Its level is reduced to the should/probably level of certainty, somwhere above 50%. The speaker could feel, in actual fact, that this person would be an idiot to refuse such a proposal; all the does is soften the offering.


If you should need my help, please let me know

JT: With this too, arguments could be made about what it actually means but since context can make a difference, suffice it to say, [I think] that we can state that it's more polite than,

If you need my help, please let me know.