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just the truth  #68162  Mon, 17 Jan 05 10:46 AM
JT: Might I enquire, Mr M, who it is you agree with?

AHD:

those beginning with if, can be tricky. In certain clauses, you use should for all three persons: if I (or you or he) should decide to go, if it should begin to snow.

Would is not acceptable in these situations, but it does appear in other kinds of conditional clauses: He might surprise you if you would give him a chance.

JT: I submit that is not acceptable because means 100% so that meaning simply has never arisen in English. It's excluded because of meaning, not any grammatical considerations. When we use , we have a conditional, a volitional meaning "would be willing to".

AHD: The best advice is to follow what sounds most natural. If you’re really not sure, try a verb form in the indicative: if it begins to snow. You can also try the subjunctive: if you were to give him a chance.

BBC English says
if you should… / if you happen to…
Note that we use should in the if-clause in the first conditional if we want to suggest that something is very unlikely.

JT: I disagree, at least that it always means, "something is very unlikely".

1) Oh, are you going to the bar? If you should run into Bob, tell him to call me.

My expectation is that Bob is often there, at the bar, and given that the bar is hardly stadium sized, "you" are going to see him. Here it must mean, "very likely or at the least likely".

It's a slightly weakend version of,

"If you run into Bob, ... ."

The AHD allows for a "if it begins to snow" to replace, "if it should begin to snow". They [and I] seem to agree that the difference is not great, certainly not as great as that suggested by the BBC English remark. More pondering is needed!

Now, I'm not saying that it can't mean "something is very unlikely". I just ran into another example that has caused me, not a little consternation but its locale eludes me at the moment.

  
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paco2004  #68169  Mon, 17 Jan 05 11:30 AM
Hello JTT

Yes I agree to the opinion there might be some word play (exaggeration) in the Japanese expression man ga ichi ni(= at (in?) a likelihood of 1/10,000). I think this phrase would actually mean "at a likelihood up to 1/10". However, I believe it shoud be true that almost all the English learners my age in Japan were taught in school that, when we encountered with the 'should conditional' in English articles, we had to translate it using the Japanese phrase 'man ga ichi ni' rather than taking it as a socially formal expression.

To tell the truth I was so surprised when I read Mr.Micawber's message that Ps(R) [the likelihood that is meant by "should conditional"] is not so different from Pi(R) [the likelihood the indicative if clause means]. First I doubted if I would have been too poor a learner of English in school and so I posted in a Japanese forum for English learners the information I got here. Most of the responses in the forum were almost the same as mine. Many of the colleagues in the form gave me replies that they were also taught that "if it should" were equal to "if it should happen by a chance of 1/10000" and they said they also first knew the reason why Americans use in their business letters such sentences like "If you should have any concerns about us, please feel free to contact us."

I think our troubles of this kind come from that our English teachers in school are teaching English to us without knowing which expression belongs to AmE and which one does to BrE.

paco

[PS] I'm afraid you would not be able to understand what I really mean because my poor writing skill is so poor.

  
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Taka  #68173  Mon, 17 Jan 05 11:55 AM
FYI:

http://www.usingenglish.com/poll/320.html
  
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MrPedantic  #68280  Tue, 18 Jan 05 12:55 AM
I'm slightly puzzled by the BBC recommendation. The 'unlikely should' is usually accompanied by a stress, in BrE: 'if he should decide to cancel his appointment, break both his legs.'

But unstressed, neutral 'should' is also heard: 'if he should decide to cancel his appointment, let me know'. (Here, the cancellation is neither likely nor unlikely.)

I would say this form is more common in the speech of 'people at work', in BrE: middle managers, civil servants, doctors, professors of archaeology, etc. I wouldn't say it was 'weekend' English. 'At the weekend', I think people would be most likely to say: 'if it rains, the match will have to be postponed'.

MrP



  
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just the truth  #68299  Tue, 18 Jan 05 02:54 AM
BBC English says
if you should… / if you happen to…
Note that we use should in the if-clause in the first conditional if we want to suggest that something is very unlikely. We can use happen to in a similar way or even combine them:
If you should / happen to change your mind about coming to the beach tomorrow, give me a ring.
I don't expect him to, but if he should happen to show up, whatever you do, don't let him in!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

JT: I, like Mr P, am puzzled by the BBC's contention, especially given their example sentence. There are differences between BrE and AmE but I find it very difficult to believe that BrE and AmE could be so far apart on such a substantive part [modal ] of English.

I don't expect him to, but if he should happen to show up, whatever you do, don't let him in!

The first part, "I don't expect him to", and the second part, " but if he should happen to show up" are not equal measures of each other. To my mind, they are, at the least, strong contrasts, if not virtual opposites. This is illustrated by the 'but'.

Paraphrased: I think it unlikely he will show up BUT in the event that he does show up, then ...

Here I agree with Mr P that "should happen" or even a "should show up" do not express any measure of certainty. Possibly, it's a slightly softened, maybe a concessive but it basically says nothing more than "if he shows up, ...".

Mr P's example is, to my mind, more of a concessive should, like a concessive may or might, in

Be that as it may/might, we still have to consider that ...

A: Don't worry, he'll be there. I guarantee it.

B: [But] If he should decide to cancel his appointment, break both his legs.'

I will also suggest that the "unlikely should" could reflect a negative should. A negative implication of could be viewed as a positive which would be a reflection of small chance, ie. "something that is unlikely to occur, might occur; something that is unlikely to be so, might be so. It only depends on the speaker's frame of reference.

I still find it difficult to accept a positive ever being viewed as "unlikely". That's the problem I have with "man ga ichi ni".

Is it a bad translation? I mean, "bad" in the sense of inaccurate or is there some idiom being used in Japanese that I'm missing that renders the translation accurate?

  
just the truth  #68302  Tue, 18 Jan 05 02:58 AM
What's this ?

Whitney Houston: I Will Always Love You

If I should stay, I would only be in your way.
So I'll go but I know I'll think of you
Every step of the way.

  
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