in order to do

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Taka

#497741 Mon, 07 Apr 08 05:33 PM

It is said that when the infinitive used in a sentence is adverbial, to express some purpose, it can be replaced with 'in order to do.'

(Example)

・I worked hard to pass the exam.=>I worked hard in order to pass the exam.

Now, I was told (by Jim) that the infinitive 'to add to our diet' in 'Let's look for salt to add to our diets.' is adverbial.

http://www.englishforums.com/English/InfinitiveAgain/znmcw/post.htm

If the infinitive were replaced with 'in order to do', as 'Let's look for salt in order to add to our diets, would it still make sense?

I mean, is it possible for the noun in front of 'in order to do' to be the object of 'do' in 'in order to do'?

Taka

Joined on Tue, Sep 7 2004

Japan

Senior Member (2,266)

Nouns

CalifJim

#497760 Mon, 07 Apr 08 06:17 PM

Taka
It is said that when the infinitive used in a sentence is adverbial, to express some purpose, it can be replaced with 'in order to do.'

I wonder if that's really universally true. ???

Taka
is it possible for the noun in front of 'in order to do' to be the object of 'do' in 'in order to do'?

Possible, I'd say, but somewhat awkward.

CalifJim

Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004

California

Veteran Member (16,970)

"There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche

Nouns

Kooyeen

#497761 Mon, 07 Apr 08 06:30 PM

Taka
I mean, is it possible for the noun in front of 'in order to do' to be the object of 'do' in 'in order to do'?

I don't think so... I wouldn't say "some things in order to do"... "These are some things in order to do" ??? I'd say "These are some things to do".

I don't think "in order to" ever refers to what comes right before it. Smile

Let's look for some salt in order to put on the steak... Hmm LOL, no way. Or maybe it's just me.

Kooyeen

Joined on Thu, Dec 22 2005

Italy

Senior Member (3,973)

If you don't have a sense of humor already, it's about time you buy one.

Nouns

Taka

#497766 Mon, 07 Apr 08 06:54 PM

CalifJim

Taka
It is said that when the infinitive used in a sentence is adverbial, to express some purpose, it can be replaced with 'in order to do.'
I wonder if that's really universally true. ???

Then could you show me some exceptions where we cannot replace the adverbial infinitive that is used to express some purpose with 'in order to do'?

Kooyeen
Let's look for some salt in order to put on the steak... LOL, no way. Or maybe it's just me.

I don't think it sounds right either—Jim says it's possible, though. Then I wonder if 'to put on the steak' in 'Let's look for some salt to put on the steak' is really adverbial.

Plus, I wonder if 'To put on the steak, let's look for some salt' sounds right or not.

Taka

Kooyeen

#497770 Mon, 07 Apr 08 07:16 PM

I'm sorry, but I don't know what adverbial means (I'm not interested in learning the specific names of what I learn), but...

Taka

If the infinitive were replaced with 'in order to do', as 'Let's look for salt in order to add to our diets, would it still make sense?

I mean, is it possible for the noun in front of 'in order to do' to be the object of 'do' in 'in order to do'?

...I don't think "salt" is the object of the verb "add" in that sentence, and that's why I said....

Taka
I mean, is it possible for the noun in front of 'in order to do' to be the object of 'do' in 'in order to do'?

...I don't think that is possible.
I have an essay to write. ("in order to" is not possible here)
I have a new tool to control all the mail my employees send. --> I have a new tool in order control all the mail my employees send.

But there are some ambiguous cases, like this, for example:
You need a native speaker to get a better answer.
Context tells you that "to" means "in order to", but grammatically speaking, another interpretation could be possible: "What you need is that a native speaker gets a better answer".

That's just my opinion, and if you want to be sure, you'd better wait for Jim. Smile

Kooyeen

Essays, Nouns, Verbs

Taka

#497774 Mon, 07 Apr 08 07:30 PM

Kooyeen
I'm sorry, but I don't know what adverbial means (I'm not interested in learning the specific names of what I learn), but...

For your information, check 'infinitive phrase' here:

http://leo.stcloudstate.edu/grammar/phraseformulas.html

Taka

Grammar

CalifJim

#497825 Mon, 07 Apr 08 11:28 PM

Taka
CalifJim

Taka
It is said that when the infinitive used in a sentence is adverbial, to express some purpose, it can be replaced with 'in order to do.'
I wonder if that's really universally true. ???

Then could you show me some exceptions where we cannot replace the adverbial infinitive that is used to express some purpose with 'in order to do'?

The only exception I can think of right now is

Let's look for some salt to put on the steak.

Smile

If it answers the question "Why?", I assume it's adverbial. Why are we looking for salt? We want to put it on the steak.

By the way, when I said "possible" (for the in-order-to phrasing), I meant it in the most generous way, allowing for very wide variations in people's choices of word patterns. I would not say it that way myself. As I said, it strikes me as awkward. Others may judge it completely ungrammatical.

* * *

Actually, there are probably hundreds of sentences with the same pattern, where "in order to" is awkward, and yet the infinitive expresses a purpose. Come to think of it, I think I have a prejudice against "in order to". It always seems somewhat awkward to me.

1. Get some water to put this fire out!

2. I need some colorful paper to wrap this gift (in).

3. I need a sponge to wipe up this mess.

4. Get me some pork chops to cook for dinner tonight.

5. I'm going to buy a coat to keep me warm this winter.

6. We should install a safety device to prevent problems later.

It seems that "in order to" doesn't work well if a previous word in the sentence can be used as an implicit constituent in the infinitive clause, as is true, to varying degrees, in the sentences above. (some pork chops: to cook (those same) pork chops for dinner tonight) But:

I stepped aside (in order) to let the others pass.

They took a shortcut (in order) to save time.

We're going to chop the tree down (in order) to provide more sun in the back yard.

CalifJim

Clauses

Taka

#497908 Tue, 08 Apr 08 05:57 AM

1. Get some water to put this fire out!→1'. To put this fire out, get some water!

2. I need some colorful paper to wrap this gift (in).→2' . To wrap this gift, I need some colorful paper.

3. I need a sponge to wipe up this mess.→3'. To wipe this mess, I need a sponge.

4. Get me some pork chops to cook for dinner tonight.→4'. To cook for dinner, get me some pork chops.

5. I'm going to buy a coat to keep me warm this winter.→5'. To keep me warm this winter, I'm going to buy a coat.

6. We should install a safety device to prevent problems later. →6'. To prevent problems later, we should install a safety device.

7. I stepped aside to let the others pass. →7'. To let the others pass, I stepped aside.

8. They took a shortcut to save time.→8'. To save time, they took a shortcut.

9. We're going to chop the tree down to provide more sun in the back yard.→9'. To provide more sun in the back yard, we're going to chop the tree down.

Now, do you think 1'-9' sound right? In my opinion, 7'-9' work fine, but 1'-6' don't. Well, 1'-3' and 6' might work but 4'-5' in particular don't sound right.

Taka

Kooyeen

#498197 Tue, 08 Apr 08 06:22 PM

In my opinion, they are all ok with "in order to", except #4 and #2 if you include the "in" at the end. Whether it's common or not is another matter... "in order to" is more formal, so it's normal it doesn't sound great in those informal examples.

In example #4 "pork chops" is the implied object of "cook", and so "in order to" doesn't work. To me, "in order to" means "and the purpose of this is to..."
All of these to's don't mean "in order to":

I have an essay to write.
I have a lot of things to do.
I want a girl to have fun with.
I want some money to spend right now.
Etc.

Smile

Kooyeen

Essays

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