inclusion vs. separation (present perfect and simple past)

Dear all,

First, I would like to thank you in advance for reading this rather lengthy post of mine. I do need to lay out my thinking and reasoning as wide as I can so you can best help me to untangle my own confusion knot.

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After a whole day contemplating on freeing myself from this closet of my mind regarding the choice between grammatical correctness and expressional naturalness, I would like to re-explore the marriage between the simple past tense and present perfect - one more time.

As CalifJim clearly explains in one of his writings, simple past represents time specificity; while present perfect serves time non-specificity (i.e., sometime in the past, including the recent time frame). Obviously, ‘specific’ and ‘non-specific’ cannot be the same. However, in terms of time, a ‘non-specific time set’ does include a ‘specific time element’ (e.g., yesterday afternoon is ‘specific’ in the time scale between the moment of big-bang and this very moment).

In addition to that, we all know a ‘non-specific recent past’ does not include a ‘specific far past’ – distinctively, the former is younger than the later.

Therefore, (I think) the distinction between ‘inclusion’ and ‘separation’ must have contributed to the way people express themselves.

Moreover, when ‘the last’ enters a picture – as we often compare ‘the last year’ with ‘last year’ – even though, it symbolizes the last one of any sequence (i.e., non-specific), its nature conveys time-specificity – all are before it and none is after it.

In comparing to ‘the last’ - ‘the best’ or ‘the worst’ is quality-based and time-unbiased – none or more are before it and none or more are after it; and they are all inferior. However, the superlative ‘the’ does indicate a uniqueness, so when it happens, the time involved is specific!

After the above postulation, I can reason that:

“What was the best movie you have ever seen?” means “Among all movies you have seen, which one was the best?” -  and that must be logical and natural since “all movies you have seen” covers the time you saw the first one to the time you saw the last one (time non-specific) and ‘the best’ associates with one point in time (time specific). Time inclusion is in play. (Note that: “What is the movie you have seen best?” makes little sense).

Now comes the expression that raised different opinions in the earlier thread (Post: 441847 ):

 “What was the last movie you have seen?” – If we think it means “What was the movie that you have seen last?”, then we are trapped in a time conflict because  “you have seen last’ combines time non-specific present perfect ‘have seen’ and time specific ‘last’  to support the same object, the movie.

Question #1: Can we interpret “What was the last movie you have seen?” to mean  “Among all movies you have seen, which one was the last?” If not, would “What was the last movie you have ever seen?” (“ever” is added) allow us to carry out the similar interpretation?

If we allow the interpretation of “ Among …you have ...., which one was the …”, then we can conclude that simple past and present perfect can comingle provided that we look at the sentence from the ‘time inclusion’ point of view.

Now let’s move on to the next angle of this marriage dealing with the name of great grandmothers (GGMs).

If a GGM passed away far back in the past, should we ask “What is her name?” or “What was her name?. Some say, “Name is name - dead or alive!” thus, “What is her name?” is fine. However, some might disagree - “Name is not mortal; it is buried with the dead!” (side note: in some part of the world, the dead is given a new name since people would not dare to call out the old one disrespectfully); thus, they would go with “What was her name?”

For the first set of people, they would prefer this question: “What is the name of the last GGM you have lived with?” For the second set of people, ‘was’ should replace ‘is’.

Question #2: If ‘was’ is the better choice, do we face the same problem like that of “What was the last movie you have seen?”

Let’s compare “What was the last movie you have seen?” and “What was the name of the last GGM you have lived with?” Structurally, the two sentences are very similar, except that ‘have lived’ comes with preposition ‘with’. (I think) that difference must have allowed us to easily accept the second one. Intuitively, we must have associated ‘have lived’ with the GGM and ‘was’ with the name.

In other words, if what I think is acceptable, then the ‘object separation’ gives the sentence its naturalness and logical weight. Meanwhile, it seems odd to us to associate ‘have seen’ with the movie and not with its title! The ‘object uni-identification’ causes us to question. (Side note: sometimes, we have seen a movie and remembered the actors and its story but its title). The difference between ‘time inclusion’ or ‘time separation’ in fact enters into our mind as a byproduct but not the cause for our confusion. Take a look at this question: "What is the title of the last movie you have played with?" Can you tell any difference between that one and "What is the name of the last GGM you have lived with?"

Finally, for those of us who believe the addition of the word ‘recently’ would provide the ‘time separation’ between ‘recently’ (present perfect) and ‘was’ (simple past)  in order to resolve the seemingly faulty logic, (I think) it would not make any difference. In short, if we can convey “What was the movie you have seen recently called?” to mean “Tell me about the movie you have seen recently – What was it called?”, then it should be acceptable – the movie becomes a whole, and the title is a part.

That’s it! Thank you all for trying to understand what has been going on in my mind. I am anxiously looking forward to your comments since I hope that your generosity will help me advance to a new gate on my learning journey.

Best Regards.
Hoa Thai

Hello Goodman,

You are really THE BRAVE ONE! – Thank you for sharing your words. Without yours, I thought maybe I trespassed some secret ground or people might have felt the answer is so obvious not worth spending more time for a further discussion.

The reason I explore this issue again is not about finding a viable grammar rule to justify the validity of the phrase “What was the last movie you have seen?” In this case, if I must pick either is or was, I would go with is , which is more sensible.

The question that I ask myself to resolve is “why some people use was?” We could say, ‘perhaps they don’t know better’-  or when we notice ‘some’ represents a huge number, we might say, ‘it is a bad habit’. As you might have noticed, even a reputable site like BBC’s teaching English, which I cited earlier in our previous thread, posed the question in a different way: “Think of a film you have seen recently, what was it called?”  However, that too violates your statement, “The rules I learned told me that simple past and present perfect just can't be married and expected to sound happily together.”

Question #1: If the BBC’s sentence is bad, how would you rephrase it?

Question #2: If the BBC’s sentence is an exception, then what is the reason behind it? Is it because ‘call’ was used instead of ‘see’ , or ‘a film’ is used instead of ‘the last film’?

I am sorry for not being fair by not answering your question first but presenting you with my new ones! Now, let me go over yours.

You asked, “Consider this sentence ‘when was the last time you have talked to your ex-husband?’. Do you agree or not agree that this is not a sound sentence?” My answer: Agree! However, my reason is not because 'was cannot be with have talked, but the culprit is the last time.  Why do I think so?

As I stated in my original post, if  we equate that sentence to “What was the time you have talked to your husband last?” then we are trapped in the time conflict!  Moreover, “ … was the last time you have talked … “ forces us to associate one single object with both time specificity and time non-specificity.

Does my answer seem to be self-conflicting if the last time is replaced with the last movie?

The answer to that is: “it depends”. Why so?

With the interpretation that seeing the last movie  and seeing its title are the same, it faces the same problem that your sentence does (i.e., the movie and its title are one).

However, with the interpretation that seeing the last movie  represents experiencing / enjoying the last movie, it might get by – What was the last movie you have enjoyed seeing with your wife? Think of this as “Tell me about the last movie you have enjoyed seeing with your wife, what was its title?  

In addition, if the question is: “What was the title of the last  movie you have seen?” ,we can still paraphrase it – “Tell me about the last movie you have seen, what was its title?” (and you can even go on asking ‘Who was in it?, Who directed it? so on and so forth). If that is how people equate the two, thinking “What was the last movie you have seen?” means “What was the title of the last movie you have seen?” (i.e., elliptical ‘the title of’); then I can see the reason for their using was.

Nevertheless, applying the paraphrasing technique to your sentence  – “Tell me about the last time you have talked to your ex-husband, what was the time?  would present a time conflict, wouldn’t you think?

Now if we add ever to the question – “What was the last movie you have ever seen?” to mean “What was the last movie among all the movies you have ever seen” – then it would further make sense. “… the last movie among all the movies …” is redundant; thus, “among all the movies” is a natural ellipsis.

So what have I been trying to form here? I don’t quite know yet – but I am sure getting close. One thing is for sure to me now is that: we can certainly experience the seemingly odd couple living in harmony. There are other factors that force their separation and I like to know what they are (all of them).  Or do you still think they are fire and water - and no one else is responsible?

By the way, I agree with you about ‘recently’! That half-truth about its association with present perfect would cause pain to ESL learners.

Now your turn!

Ant_222 wrote:

“What was the last movie you have seen?” Using your logic, it does seem correct, but somehow I can't accept it.

Your instinct and your experiences guide you well!

However, I think you and Goodman could have read me wrong. I am not trying to advocate the use or correctness of the sentence at all. Even my logic could not defend its illogical construct. To me, it is NOT GOOD ENGLISH! (“Good English is English that at present very rarely sparks the expressed or unexpressed reaction “That’s not good English,” either from those who really do know better or from those who merely think they do.” - Edward D. Johnson).

I just want to find out why many people use such a construct with ease. If I can reason it out, I think I might be able to find a key to further understand the intricacies and nuances of the language - peeking into the mind of the speakers per se. Right now, I don’t have that key. Not being a native English speaker, I cannot feel the naturalness that native speakers do. Books, reference guides have been the only resources that I relied on to improve myself. Fortunately, with the presence of Internet, I now have a chance to further explore and I am willing to make a fool of myself, hoping that with others’ help I will use the language better.

Having said all that, I learned one important tip from Clive – he said, “We don't spend ages hesitating before we say such things. If we sense there may be confusion, we often instinctively choose another form of words. Otherwise, the listener may ask us to clarify our statement. Sometimes the listener cares, sometimes they don't even care.”

As an ESL learner, I take that to heart. All of this grammar stuff, learning at my early age, was the impediment of my English advancement.

However, we do need it to save ourselves embarrassment; eventually, we will find the pleasure in using the language and be able to share that with others.

Regarding my finding, I am very close to form my own opinion and will share with you in due course.

All the best,

Hoa Thai