It vs that

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PASTEL  #41045  Fri, 06 Aug 04 08:38 AM
Off topic.

it would cost. After he had looked at all the price tags, he thought, "This is going to be expensive!" >


In this example, I'm wondering why you used "it" to refer to "a lot of new clothes"? Should it be 'they'?



Pastel
  
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CalifJim  #41053  Fri, 06 Aug 04 09:44 AM
Excellent, excellent observation! Smile [:)]

Good analyses.

1) It would do no harm to use "they" to refer to "clothes".

2) It seems more idiomatic to me to use "preposed it" to refer to an infinitive phrase.

3) It is easy to see that I have already created three sentences in this posting with this type of "preposed it".

Let's look at them:

1b) To use "they" to refer to "clothes" would do no harm.
2b) To use "preposed it" to refer to an infinitive phrase seems more idiomatic to me.
3b) To see that I have already created three sentences in this posting with this type of "preposed it" is easy.

The first three have an obvious relation to the second three. The second three are the "untransformed form" of the ideas.

Now watch this:

To buy a lot of new clothes would cost some amount.
Becomes:
It would cost some amount to buy a lot of new clothes.
Direct question form:
How much would it cost to buy a lot of new clothes?
Indirect question (noun phrase) form:
how much it would cost to buy a lot of new clothes.

He worried about this: how much it would cost to buy a lot of new clothes.

But the idea of buying the clothes was already expressed earlier in the sentence so it can be deleted here.

He worried about how much it would cost.

From: He worried about how much 'to buy a lot of new clothes' would cost.

(Sorry. I didn't spend a lot of time on this. There are probably a few minor flaws in the analysis or in my way of presenting it, but I think it gives you enough so you can work out the picky details on your own!Smile [:)] )
  
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Guest  #41055  Fri, 06 Aug 04 10:14 AM
lol Pastel!

I, the starter of this thread, am an EFL teacher. I was utterly stumped when a student asked this question.

It's taken a few days ..... but finally I think I have enough 'fodder' to be able to answer my student's question.

I feel a little less inadequate knowing that there are not many people capable of easily answering this one.

Thanks to all for your interest and help! Thanks too to Englishforums.com.
  
salam1101  #41095  Fri, 06 Aug 04 04:51 PM
Off topic

To CalifJim

"We had a BBQ this weekend!"
"We had a BBQ last weekend!"
Are these sentences refering to the same weekend?

"We are going to have a BBQ this weekend!"
"We aregoing to have a BBQ next weekend!"
How about these?
Thaks
  
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PASTEL  #41120  Fri, 06 Aug 04 09:03 PM
Becomes:
It would cost some amount to buy a lot of new clothes.
Direct question form:
How much would it cost to buy a lot of new clothes?
Indirect question (noun phrase) form:
how much it would cost to buy a lot of new clothes.
He worried about this: how much it would cost to buy a lot of new clothes. >>>>


Jim,

That is persuasive. You use 'preposed it' to refer to an infinitive phrase. And I have other point of view here. Would you like to hear?
>>>>>He was about to buy a lot of new clothes and was worried about how much it would cost.
I would see the sentence like this.
1) He was about to buy a lot of new clothes.
2) He was worried about how much it would cost.
Direct question form:
How much would a lot of new clothes cost?
Indirect question form:
How much a lot of new clothes would cost?
2a)He was worried about how much [a lot of new clothes] would cost.
2c)He was worried about how much [they] would cost.


So 'they' do not harm the sentence as well. Right? It depends on how one analyzes it. 'Preposed it' may be idiomatic to native speakers, but I am an ESL/EFL learner and teacher, it will never be that idiomatic to me though.Big Smile [:D]



Pastel
  
CalifJim  #41121  Fri, 06 Aug 04 09:14 PM
Yes, the first two refer to the same weekend.
Yes, the second two refer to the same weekend.

In these types of sentences, "this" means "closest to now", and the verb tense tells the direction you must go in time to find the proper weekend.
  
haoqide  #41126  Fri, 06 Aug 04 10:53 PM
Wow, after looking at your posts, people, I'm feeling woefully inadequate as a helper here. I wish I had more time to put into my responses lately! :(
  
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CalifJim  #41129  Fri, 06 Aug 04 11:46 PM
Pastel,

Never say "never"! Wink [;)]

There are very few verbs in English that cause such a commotion. I think my examples illustrate the most usual ones. "take" is so flexible that I included a separate section at the end with more examples.

These are illustrations of preposed "it" as a representative of the infinitive clause and/or various pronomializations. As usual, "*" means ungrammatical, and "?" means questionable. It is possible that in the heat of conversation a sentence with "?" or even "??" might be generated, but not if the speaker took the time to think about it.

*To write the letters took me five hours.
*To write them took me five hours.
It took me five hours to write the letters.
It took me five hours to write them.

?The letters took me five hours to write.
?The letters took me five hours.

??They took me five hours to write.
??They took me five hours.
__________

"require" is not very flexible. Promoting the object of the infinitive to subject is suspect, i.e., possible, but not recommended. Also note that leaving the infinitive at the end of the sentence while promoting its object to subject is analogous to ending a sentence with a preposition while its object goes roaming about elsewhere!

*To teach the verbs of English requires patience.
*To teach them requires patience.
It requires patience to teach the verbs of English.
It requires patience to teach them.

?The verbs of English require patience to teach.
?The verbs of English require patience.

?They require patience to teach.
?They require patience.
__________

"to do (someone) (a lot of / a world of ) good" is about as flexible as "cost".

*To watch movies does me a world of good.
*To watch them does me a world of good.
It does me a world of good to watch movies.
It does me a world of good to watch them.

?Movies do me a world of good to watch.
Movies do me a world of good.

??They do me a world of good to watch.
They do me a world of good.
_________

?To buy new clothes costs a lot of money.
*To buy them costs a lot of money.
It costs a lot of money to buy new clothes.
It costs a lot of money to buy them.

?New clothes cost a lot of money to buy.
New clothes cost a lot of money.

??They cost a lot of money to buy.
They cost a lot of money.
________

To buy new appliances would cost me $2000.
To buy them would cost me $2000.
It would cost me $2000 to buy new appliances.
It would cost me $2000 to buy them.

?New appliances would cost me $2000 to buy.
New appliances would cost me $2000.

??They would cost me $2000 to buy.
They would cost me $2000.

Note in the examples with "cost", both preposed "it" and raising the object are possible. That's why either "it" or "they" works in the "buying clothes" example.
________

The verb "take" is especially flexible. It allows several sentence constituents to be raised to subject position, as well as allowing preposed "it". Just about any element can be pronomialized as well.

For the carpenter to measure the roof beams takes two hours.
It takes two hours for the carpenter to measure the roof beams.

It takes the carpenter two hours to measure the roof beams.
It takes the carpenter two hours to measure them.
It takes him two hours to measure the roof beams.
It takes him two hours to measure them.

The carpenter takes two hours to measure the roof beams.
The carpenter takes two hours to measure them.
He takes two hours to measure the roof beams.
He takes two hours to measure them.

The roof beams take two hours for the carpenter to measure.
The roof beams take two hours for him to measure.
They take two hours for the carpenter to measure.
They take two hours for him to measure.
They take two hours to measure.

The roof beams take the carpenter two hours to measure.
The roof beams take him two hours to measure.
They take the carpenter two hours to measure.
They take him two hours to measure.
They take two hours to measure.

The following three are of particular relevance to your question.

Preposed "it", pronomialized "carpenter", or pronomialized "beams" are all possible. They are listed in order of acceptability, however. The first listed is the most acceptable and idiomatic. Note that the object of the infinitive is least idiomatic. (Recall my remarks about idiomaticity in the "buying clothes" example.) Raising the subject of the infinitive to the subject of the main clause is quite acceptable with "take", but makes no sense at all with "cost" (Which is why "he" was not a possibility in "*worried about how much he would cost".)

If the carpenter were to measure the roof beams,
I wonder how long it would take.

If the carpenter were to measure the roof beams,
I wonder how long he would take.

If the carpenter were to measure the roof beams,
I wonder how long they would take.

So "take" allows THREE possibilities, whereas "cost" allowed only two.
Every verb has its own personality!

There is absolutely no end to the treats!!!!!!

There are many more forms if we venture into the passive voice, such as, "It takes two hours for the roof beams to be measured by the carpenter."

The other 5,469,304 possible examples are left as an exercise to the reader!Smile [:)] Smile [:)]

Enjoy!

Jim
  
CalifJim  #41130  Fri, 06 Aug 04 11:57 PM
haogide,

Not to worry. Everybody has something to contribute in a forum like this. It really is a matter of time. Next week I'll be busy and unable to spend so much time at it. The someone else will "run off at the mouth" as I've been doing!Smile [:)]

We all work together and help each other, and together we get the job done.
We learn things and share views, and we have a lot of fun doing it ( Whisper [:-*] although I must say Pastel is really setting up some exhausting challenges!)

Take care.
Jim



  
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