Lake, Mountain, Beach

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paco2004

#162359 Thu, 24 Nov 05 11:48 PM

Hello Danyoo

It's nice of you to put such detailed information. They are really helpful to me. Appropriate uses of THE are very tough to acquire for us who do not use articles in the mother tongue - Japanese.

paco

paco2004

Joined on Wed, Nov 17 2004

Senior Member (4,095)

In Japan today even dogs are learning how to bow-wow in English.

Articles

Danyoo

#162519 Fri, 25 Nov 05 11:43 AM

Thanks for the props paco!

I know the use of the articles is one of the most difficult aspect of learning English. That and the idioms. I know through personal experience since I am a Korean-American and I've been living in the U.S. since I was 13 years old. And let me just say that was a long long time ago. Cool [H]

Danyoo

Joined on Fri, Nov 11 2005

Chicago, USA

Regular Member (558)

To err is human, to forgive divine. 잘못을 저지르는 것은 인간이지만 용서할수있는 것은 하늘과 같은것.

Articles, Idioms, Learning English

paco2004

#162732 Fri, 25 Nov 05 09:39 PM

Hello Danyoo

Thanks for the reply. Now I see why you are able to explain so well, so analytically, the usage of THE. It seems that THE is a word too familiar to explain its usage for most native speakers. So when I ask them about it saying like "why you use THE here?", many of them give me simply an answer like "It is because we use THE here". I think even grammar experts cannot explain the usage of THE so well as you did for us. Thank you again.

paco

paco2004

Grammar

HSS

#162852 Sat, 26 Nov 05 06:57 AM

Hi, all.

The thread is growing so interesting to me. Thanks a heap.

[1] A monkey of Kamikitazawa Forest ran away, and we still can't find him.

[2] The monkey of Kamikitazawa Forest ran away, and we still can't find him.

Suppose [2] is the first sentence, said out of the blue, or not preceded by any sentence, in an essay; that it is only natural that most of the readers do not know about the monkey; and that there had in fact been one monkey in the forest; would this sentence still sound odd? Would "the" require us to have pre-notion to define what monkey the author is talking about, even though there is "of Kamikitazawa Forest"?

[3] Beaches of Sunshine Coast are sandy, and they are all beautiful. You may want to spend all day just basking in the sun, reading a book.

[4] The beaches of Sunshine Coast are sandy, and they are all beautiful. You may want to spend all day just basking in the sun, reading a book.

Now, if again these are not preceded by any sentence in an essay, which do you think is better.

[3] because this is regarding generic beaches on the Coast?

[3] again because "the beaches" in [4] raises a question of what beaches?

[4] because this is talking about the type of beaches on the Coast?

English native speakers do not seem to just say, "I went to lakes in Scotland," but rather, "I went to the lakes in Scotland." How about non-geographical features, such as museums?

[5] I fully enjoyed my last trip to Chicago. I went to museums there.

(6] I fully enjoyed my last trip to Chicago. I went to the museums there.

Hiro/ Sendai, Japan

HSS

Joined on Wed, Nov 16 2005

Sendai, Japan

Regular Member (501)

JH7JHH, First Class ham radio operator. N9COW in the US.

Essays

paco2004

#162873 Sat, 26 Nov 05 08:08 AM

Hello Hiro

As far as I've learned, the validity of using THE will depend the extent to which the speaker and the listeners share knowledge.

In the case of Kamikita Forests' monkey, I think, you can say "the monkey" if you can believe your listeners also know there is only one monkey in the forest. But if your listeners don't know it, they would be puzzled and utter to you "which monkey do you mean?" As for the beaches of Sunshine Coast, both would be possible. But with the version with THE, I think, some of your listeners would take you as a person who speaks high-handedly. I feel that with the use of THE the speaker is saying implicitly that s/he takes it for granted that the listeners know what s/he means.

paco

paco2004

HSS

#162919 Sat, 26 Nov 05 11:25 AM

Hi, Paco.

Mmmmm, yep, that's what I'm beginning to think, Paco. A lot of literature here implies if enough information is supplied with modifiers that are placed around the noun, "the" could well be used even if the listeners do not know what it is.

What do you think about the "museum" sentences, Paco or anyone, vis-a-vis, "I went to the lakes in Scotland in Feburary in my recent visit to Europe"?

Hiro/ Sendai, Japan

HSS

Nouns, Literature

paco2004

#162932 Sat, 26 Nov 05 11:45 AM

Hi Hiro

As for the cases of "museums" and "lakes", if I were the speaker, I feel, I would modify them with THE. It is because the events are what I experienced in past (as seen from "enjoyed my first trip" and "went") and so I know well which museums or lakes I visited.

paco

paco2004

HSS

#162984 Sat, 26 Nov 05 01:46 PM

Danyoo wrote:

C: I am going to the movies
C: Okay to say the movies without having any specific movie title in mind. Your co-worker may then may ask "Oh that sounds good. What are you going to see?" It's equally acceptable to say "I am going to see a movie.".

Hi, Danyoo.

From my rememberance, etymology says the word movie comes from "mov(ing picture) + ie"; thus, I reckon "movies" in this example equals collectively films, and the defines the word "movies" as belonging to all cinemas in town.

Am I right in the interpretation?

Hiro/ Sendai, Japan

HSS

#162990 Sat, 26 Nov 05 02:10 PM

Hello Paco,

Your insight into and analytical observation about the issues raised here are admirable.

I agree that I should add the with that sentence, but I think that's because by the speaker's saying the the listener(s) will/would understand that the "museums" he/she is referring to are (some or all) museums of the area --- attached-ness or belongingness, so to speak.

Hiro/ Sendai, Japan

HSS

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