Lake, Mountain, Beach

Share on Facebook

paco2004

#162997 Sat, 26 Nov 05 02:40 PM

HSS wrote:
I agree that I should add the with that sentence, but I think that's because by the speaker's saying the the listener(s) will/would understand that the "museums" he/she is referring to are (some or all) museums of the area --- attached-ness or belongingness, so to speak.

I comletely agree. The speaker uses THE on the premise that his/her listeners would know why s/he uses THE.

paco

paco2004

Joined on Wed, Nov 17 2004

Senior Member (4,095)

In Japan today even dogs are learning how to bow-wow in English.

Danyoo

#163160 Sat, 26 Nov 05 11:23 PM

Hi Hiro,

Gee...to tell you the truth, I am not sure...you may very well be right.

If someone says "I am going to the movies," it's the same as "I am going to the movie theater" or "I am going to the cinema." It could be any one of the many theaters in town.

Danyoo

Joined on Fri, Nov 11 2005

Chicago, USA

Regular Member (558)

To err is human, to forgive divine. 잘못을 저지르는 것은 인간이지만 용서할수있는 것은 하늘과 같은것.

paco2004

#163162 Sat, 26 Nov 05 11:48 PM

Hello Hiro again

We may choose an article among THE, A/AN, ZERO on the rules of knowledge-sharing relationship between speakers and their listeners. However, there is another sort of obstacle for ESLs to acquire English usage of articles. That is the usage of articles in idiomatic phrases.

The articles are ZERO articles in the phrases like "go to church" and "go to school". This usage of ZERO articles is reasoned that the function of the church or the school is more important than the buildings those noun mean. On the other hand, the facilities like a hospital or a bank are idiomatically modified with THE in the phrases like "go to the hospital" (AmE) and "go to the bank". It is reasoned by the historical facts that in old days most American small towns had not more than a single hospital or bank. "Go to the movies" belongs to the same class of idiomatic phrase. The word "movie" was coined in America around 1910 to mean a moving picture show. But they soon began using "the movies" as a place or house in a town where people could see moving picture shows. So they began saying "go to the movies" as well as "go to see a movie".

paco

paco2004

Articles, Nouns

HSS

#163219 Sun, 27 Nov 05 03:25 AM

Thanks much, Paco, for the very useful info.

Even with idiomatic phrases, I've always tried to see how articles are used, and tried to give them reasons. The movies became the word to mean the one and only cinema in town in old days, perhaps pointing to the movies shown at the theater, and to go to the movies has been established to mean to go to see any movie in any theater anywhere. The one and only theater thing really has patched up a blank in thinking I have had.

Hiro/ Sendai, Japan

HSS

Joined on Wed, Nov 16 2005

Sendai, Japan

Regular Member (501)

JH7JHH, First Class ham radio operator. N9COW in the US.

Articles

paco2004

#163303 Sun, 27 Nov 05 08:52 AM

Hello Hiro

Thank you for the reply. Sounds like you are the same sort of English learner. I have tried to understand English logically. But lately I come to suspect that it might be impossible to explain all the linguistic phenomena in the English language logically.

By the way, "walk on the beach" is an idiomatic phrase and we have to modify "beach" with THE whatever beach we may walk on. According to OED, the original sense of "beach" is the water-worn pebbles and sand, that is, the material we can see on the seashore, and when "beach" is used in this sense, it is a collective noun and always modified with THE. The countable noun "beach" was a later invention and it began to be used as a word connoting a particular "beach-covered" seashore place. The "beach" in "walk on the beach" is the material "beach", not "beach" for a seashore place, so tells OED.

paco

paco2004

Nouns, Countable nouns

Anonymous

#163719 Mon, 28 Nov 05 09:39 AM

Paco2004 wrote:
When "beach" is used in this sense, it is a collective noun and always modified with THE.

paco

Hi, Paco.

You teaching is always very valuable. Thanks, Paco.

I'm a type of person who approaches English analytically but tries to simplify all I have learnt or found, as I believe no one thinks that much when they talk; they speak things based on rather simply senses of words or phrases. "The" must work along the same line.

I'm writing this at work, taking five. So this is going to be so brief. Do you figure out how "the" should be used there? It should not be because it is a collective noun. Are you saying we have to take the phrase as it is without asking why "the" is there because it's an idiomatic expression, Paco?

Hiro/ Sendai, Japan

Anonymous

Nouns, Expressions

paco2004

#163744 Mon, 28 Nov 05 11:17 AM

Anonymous wrote:
Do you figure out how "the" should be used there? It should not be because it is a collective noun. Are you saying we have to take the phrase as it is without asking why "the" is there because it's an idiomatic expression, Paco?

Hello Hiro

I am sorry but I have to say I might be wrong taking what OED is saying. To prepare to make an answer you, I've just now re-read OED's explanation about the etymology of "beach" and have noticed I might have misread the description. The dictionary rather says that "beach" was first used as an uncountable noun to mean the material on the seashore and later it began to be used as a noun indicating the place on the seashore that is covered with that material. "Walk on the beach" is an idiomatic phrase using "beach" in the latter sense.

I'll quote a part of the description in the OED.
beach, n.
[Origin unknown: apparently at first a dialect word, meaning, as it still does in Sussex, Kent, and the adjacent counties, the shingle or pebbles worn by the waves. Thence the transference of the term to the place covered by ‘beach,’ was easy for those who heard such phrases as ‘to lie’ or ‘walk on the beach,’ without knowing the exact significance. The Fr. grève shows precisely the same transference.

As to your question about the reason why "the" is used in the idiomatic phrase "walk on the beach", OED tells nothing.

paco

paco2004

Nouns, Dialects, Expressions, Uncountable nouns, Countable nouns

Mister Micawber

#163785 Mon, 28 Nov 05 01:31 PM

If I have followed your lengthy discussion accurately-- I see nothing idiomatic about a walk on the beach. As I said ever so many pages ago,

The beach (singular) is fine even if not mentioned before, as it designates a type of terrain common to all coastal countries; the plural, the beaches, though less common, is just as acceptable, for the same reason. And for the same reason again, we go to the mountains in the summer-- even though you don't know what mountains I am speaking of.

It serves for most if not all types of terrain: I hate the desert; I love the jungle and the plains. If anything, the specificity is 'of the world'. These seem to be generic, like The lion is the king of beasts.

Or am I 'way behind you?

Mister Micawber

Joined on Wed, Aug 4 2004

Yokohama

Veteran Member (22,306)

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master-- that's all.'

Plurals

paco2004

#163929 Mon, 28 Nov 05 08:43 PM

Mister Micawber wrote:
The beach (singular) is fine even if not mentioned before, as it designates a type of terrain common to all coastal countries; the plural, the beaches, though less common, is just as acceptable, for the same reason. And for the same reason again, we go to the mountains in the summer-- even though you don't know what mountains I am speaking of.

You would always say "I like walking on the beach" even when the beach is followed by some words like "in Acapulco" or "at sunset". But I often come across a phrase like "spend time in Hawaii enjoying beaches" or "Be aware of sharks while enjoying beaches in Austaralia", though this "beaches" could be replaced with "the beach". As for "mountains", I feel "I like climbing mountains" is more natural than "I like climbing the mountains". But I know this sort of my non-native feelings about use of THE are wrong.

paco

paco2004

Plurals

1 2 3 4 5