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andrew    662259 Sat, 13 Sep 03 10:07 PM

"I call Spanish-speaking people in America Hispanics. Am I right in this, or wrong? (Hi, Donna!) I'm pretty sure Beaners is out, but is calling them Latinos considered rude?"

I'll stick with "beaners," but that's just me.
I live in Buena Park, Southern California, at the heart of the immigration problem. The Mexican students at the high school used to wear these shirts proclaiming that they wanted to be called "Mexicans". It went something like this:
NOT LATINO
NOT HISPANIC
BUT MEXICAN
Basically some "brown pride" ***. If the white students wore anything mentioning their race they would be expelled.
mickwick    662266 Sat, 13 Sep 03 10:23 PM

"I remember too well when there were groups in the states bordering Mexico insisting on "Chicano/Chicana" as empowering, while others were just as loudly calling those terms demeaning and insulting. What's a poor Anglo to do?"

Indeed.
"Well, the right-wing crowd has it easy; they just call them werbacks. And the apathetic just ignore it all."

But not academia. Here's that ancient link:
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/latam/schomburgmoreno/juntosweb.html

The apologia is called Juntos y Revueltos: The US Latino Population at the End of the Twentieth Century , and it was written for and by Arturo Madrid, the Norine R. and T. Frank Murchison Distinguished Professor of the Humanities at Trinity University, San Antonio, Texas.

An extract:


IV. Why So Many Names?
I start with names. They (the students) are curious about names, as is confirmed by a questionnaire in which I ask them to list issues that are of concern or interest to them. What does Hispanic mean? Where does it come from? What is the basis of the opposition to Hispanic? Who does it include/exclude? Why call ourselves Latinos? Why can't I just be Argentinean (sic), or Colombian, or Ecuadorian, or Peruvian? Who is Boricua? Who is a Nuyorican? Who is a Chicano? What is the difference between Chicano and Mexican American? Why do people not want to be called Mexican? What does raza mean? What is a cholo? a pocho? a pachuco? Why the demeaning, disparaging, derogatory names? Why this obsession with names? Why so many names? Can’t we all agree on one?


Subsequent chapter titles:
V. Do I Want To Hear This?
VI. Demography and Nomenclature
('The most intense discussions have to do with the distorted portrait of heterogeneous communities resulting from the aggregation of data and with the creation of an artificial, homogenous community through the use of a universal label: Hispanic. The label, most opine, conflates national origins, differing experiences, and cultural, ethnic, social, and racial differences, and in so doing liquidates the history of the longest-term and largest Latino (aka Hispanic) communities.')

VII. Hispanics: A Self-Inflicted Wound
VIII. Born in The U.S.A.
(Paraphrase: 'Increasing numbers of Latinos think of themselves as Hispanics; others think of themselves as simply being American. Ho hum.')
IX. Towards An Imagined Latino Community
The Norine R. and T. Frank Murchison Distinguished Professor of the Humanities at Trinity University concludes with the words: 'We find ourselves at the end of the 20th Century (sic) thus looking for new models with which to enter the 21st Century (sic).'

And who could argue with that? Money well spent, I reckon. Three cheers for the prof! Four cheers for Norine R. and T. Frank!

(That makes seven in all, by the way. Don't skip any.)

Mickwick
oncle    662276 Sat, 13 Sep 03 11:12 PM

"(haven't seen his contribution yet)"

"Maria Conlon replied(enormous split as to content of this thread)"

Maria, please don't post interesting replies to messages that my poor old sever hasn't yet downloaded... I've never been able to get used to Usenet time-warp...
Seriously, thank-you all for your contributions. I have a colleague here in France from Uruguay, and I'm in frequent contact with other colleagues from Argentina. I have very much appreciated the confrontation between "our" (UK / France / ...European..??) way of thinking and that of the Americas.
DA
Steve Hayes    662364 Sun, 14 Sep 03 06:32 AM

"Charles Riggs filted:"

"I call Spanish-speaking people in America Hispanics. Am I right ... Beaners is out, but is calling them Latinos considered rude?"

"There's even less agreement on this, e'en among those to whom the terms are supposed to apply, than there is ... whether that person can speak any more of the Spanish language than is heard in the average Taco Bell commercial.."

I'm surprised at that. I've thought of it primarily as a linguistic term those whose first language is Spanish or a dialect thereof.
"(2) "Latino" refers to those whose families come from the Spanish-speaking countries of the New World...you'll not use this term ... to describe a migrant farm-worker in the central valley of California (place of birth is not itself a determining factor).."

So it wouldn't include Brazilians of Italian ancestry?

Again, I'm surprised.

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
R H Draney    662401 Sun, 14 Sep 03 07:05 AM

Steve Hayes filted:
"(1) "Hispanic" means someone whose ancestry prominently features Spain, whether ... language than is heard in the average Taco Bell commercial.."

"I'm surprised at that. I've thought of it primarily as a linguistic term those whose first language is Spanish or a dialect thereof."

There's a vast difference in this arena between what a word *should* mean based upon its derivation and what it means in practice...this is one of those words...I've known people with no Spanish language at all who consider themselves Hispanic solely on the basis of their ancestry...and people who have spoken Spanish as a co-first language who deny the term because their ancestors came from the Cherokee strip..
"(2) "Latino" refers to those whose families come from the ... California (place of birth is not itself a determining factor).."

"So it wouldn't include Brazilians of Italian ancestry? Again, I'm surprised."

Fair enough...you'd think it would mean anyone who could trace ancestry back to a country with a language based on Latin, but I seriously doubt a certain Romanian co-worker of mine thinks of herself as Latina...again, my description is of the way the word is actually applied..
The only rule you can use in matters of this sort is "call people what they want to be called"...you'll never win their hearts and minds with logic..r
R H Draney    662408 Sun, 14 Sep 03 07:10 AM

andrew filted:
"I live in Buena Park, Southern California, at the heart of the immigration problem. The Mexican students at the high ... BUT MEXICAN Basically some "brown pride" ***. If the white students wore anything mentioning their race they would be expelled."

One woman I know claims she's one hundred percent Aztec in ancestry...the only word of the three that would fit her is Mexican...(actually, I think the more militant cases prefer to call the country Aztlan instead of Mexico)..

Maybe you could get yourself one of the shirts and alter the "but" to a third "not"..r
Charles Riggs    662398 Sun, 14 Sep 03 07:27 AM

"I call Spanish-speaking people in America Hispanics. Am I right ... Beaners is out, but is calling them Latinos considered rude?"

"I'll stick with "beaners," but that's just me."

My sister said that's her husband's term for them, but I suspect she was joking. She was serious when asking about the other possible names.

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs>at>eircom>dot>com
Ross Howard    662482 Sun, 14 Sep 03 11:53 AM

"Anyway: The terms "Latinos" and "Hispanics" are mainly governmentese catch-alls. The actual people are either Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Columbians, Hatians, etc."

¿Qué? Since when have Ha(i)itians been Hispanics? And why pick on the alumni of just one university?
**
Ross Howard
Aaron J. Dinkin    662551 Sun, 14 Sep 03 04:52 PM

"It's true that Puerto Rico and Guam (don't forget Guam) are U.S. territories, but I'm not sure that the title ... others or even by themselves. To and among themselves, I think they are Puerto Ricans and Guamians, and not "Americans.""

"Nobody knows in America,
Puerto Rico's in America."
Stephen Sondheim, West Side Story
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
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