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Skitt    663080 Mon, 15 Sep 03 08:39 PM

"I see that Americans are in the right process. A ... to be a multiracial society because we've never been racists."

"Evan K. raises an important point in this regard. How do you account for the racial caste systems that are ... you prefer. Surely you don't regard the institution of slavery in the Spanish Empire to be of a "non-racist" character."

Recognizing differences and using that recognition to one's own advantage is a basic human trait. We are learning to deny it, but nevertheless, it will always be there.

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
Javi    663108 Mon, 15 Sep 03 09:51 PM

"How far do you take that? If a white person ... Spaniard to answer since Spain is not a multiracial society."

"Say qué? Spain has been a multi-racial society for going on for 1,000 years."

I know what you mean and I think that you are right, but I would not call Spain a multiracial society, but a aracial society: race has never been important in the Spanish society. Gipsies might object to that, but it was their nomadic way of living, and nowadays it is their blood feuds, not their race, what made them not to integrate in the Spanish society, integration that most of them didn't want, as many of them preferred to lead a nomadic life. But the few who preferred a sedentary life have integrated in the Spanish society without problem.

Saludos cordiales
Javi
Conjunction of an irregular verb:
I am firm.
You are obstinate.
He is a pig-headed fool.
Javi    663117 Mon, 15 Sep 03 09:58 PM

"I see that Americans are in the right process. A ... to be a multiracial society because we've never been racists."

"Evan K. raises an important point in this regard. How do you account for the racial caste systems that are in place throughout Latin America today?"

There is not a racial caste system in Latin America today. It existed, but it does not exist any more. I explain it as an indirect consequence of the land property system inherited from Spanish and Portuguese colonists. Nowadays, the fact that land property is mainly in the hands of descendents of non-indigenous Hispano-Americans is a consequence of the way that the new independent nations made their laws, not a direct consequence of the (supposed by you) racism of the Spanish colonists. Anyway, I never wrote that we Spaniards have *never* been racists. I wrote that we are not racists *nowadays*.
"These were set up originally (in part by establishing systems of enslavement of non-European populations, both indigenous and imported African slaves) by Spaniards and Portuguese persons, or by Spanish and Portuguese colonists if you prefer."

You can believe me or not, or better, you can read historians on the matter, but indigenous Americans were never slaves in the Spanish colonies. The "encomiendas" did not enslave indigenous. African slaves was a different matter, but I suppose that I don't have to explain how black slaves descendants were treated in North-America, nor how North-American indigenous were exterminated by the white emigrants in North-America. You may believe that extermination is better than being deprived of ancestors' land, but I don't.
"Surely you don't regard the institution of slavery in the Spanish Empire to be of a "non-racist" character."

Slavery existed in *all* countries until the 19th century. Spain is not an exception in this, but it is in the sense that former slaves were assimilated, if not in the first generation, in the subsequent generations, to the non-slave population. We had lots of black slaves in Spain, mainly in the 17th and 18th centuries, but nowadays their descendants are indishtinguishable from the non-slave population descendants, because they mixed with the poor Spaniards in those centuries without problem. How is, and was, the matter in the USA? (rethoric question, no answer needed).


Saludos cordiales
Javi
Conjunction of an irregular verb:
I am firm.
You are obstinate.
He is a pig-headed fool.
R F    663148 Mon, 15 Sep 03 11:34 PM

"Evan K. raises an important point in this regard. How ... caste systems that are in place throughout Latin America today?"

"There is not a racial caste system in Latin America today. It existed, but it does not exist any more."

That is the most ignorant assertion I have ever read in five or so years of reading AUE, WADR, and that includes the suggestion by one Californian poster that Roman Catholics should be disqualified from holding public office. The only Latin American societies that do not currently have pervasive racial caste systems are those few that do not have and never have had any substantial non-European-ethnicity population.

I've heard it claimed by leftists that Cuba abolished its racial caste system under Castro, but the fact that control of Cuba has been in the hands of one bearded cigar-smoking pointy-fingered fatigues-clad white guy (of Galician descent to boot, no?) for over forty years makes me skeptical.
"Anyway, I never wrote that we Spaniards have *never* been racists. I wrote that we are not racists *nowadays*."

Read above: you said "we've never been racists".
"You can believe me or not, or better, you can read historians on the matter, but indigenous Americans were never slaves in the Spanish colonies."

Yes they were, though my understanding is that efforts to enslave the indigenous Americans were often unsuccessful (because they'd tend to kill themselves rather than endure slavery under the cruel Europeans), which is what led, in some places, to the preference for enslaving Africans. In any case, if they weren't slaves in some places, they were hardly treated as equals of the Europeans. It's not accidental that Latin-American immigrants to the US are predominantly poor persons of largely non-European-ethnic ancestry. It's not accidental that 'Latino' or 'Hispanic' came to be regarded as a quasi-racial group in the modern US; the reason is that the vast majority of such persons were, in fact, of substantial non-European ancestry, descendants of, or themselves, victims of racism and racial-caste-ism of Latin America.
"Slavery existed in *all* countries until the 19th century. Spain is not an exception in this, but it is in ... descendants are indishtinguishable from the non-slave population descendants, because they mixed with the poor Spaniards in those centuries without problem."

Aha! If, as you say, Spaniards have no notion of 'race', how is it that you can speak of 'mixing with the poor Spaniards' the very way you frame the statement assumes that the black slaves in Spain were NOT Spaniards. Get's!
R F
Javi    663170 Tue, 16 Sep 03 12:12 AM

"There is not a racial caste system in Latin America today. It existed, but it does not exist any more."

"That is the most ignorant assertion I have ever read in five or so years of reading AUE, WADR, and that includes the suggestion by one Californian poster that Roman Catholics should be disqualified from holding public office."

Then I assume that you have read very little in those last five years.
"The only Latin American societies that do not currently have pervasive racial caste systems are those few that do not have and never have had any substantial non-European-ethnicity population."

And which few countries are those? Are they in planet Earth? I think it is just the opposite: in the countries, as Bolivia, which never had a substantial European population, the power is in the hands of the very few European-descendants. On the other hand, countries that had a substantial European population, which mixed with the indigenous population, have nowadays a mixed population, and the ethnic origin is not as important as it is in other countries.
Caste system? As it was in India? You have never been south of Rio Grande, except as, maybe, a tourist.
"I've heard it claimed by leftists that Cuba abolished its racial caste system under Castro, but the fact that control ... one bearded cigar-smoking pointy-fingered fatigues-clad white guy (of Galician descent to boot, no?) for over forty years makes me skeptical."

I see. You are an anticastrist, and this justifies that you call "caste system" a society that clearly is not based in race.
"Anyway, I never wrote that we Spaniards have *never* been racists. I wrote that we are not racists *nowadays*."

"Read above: you said "we've never been racists"."

Really? Did I wrote that verbatim? I must tell my psychiatrist that I write things that I don't remember later (or maybe it is just that you understand what you'd like to read).
"You can believe me or not, or better, you can read historians on the matter, but indigenous Americans were never slaves in the Spanish colonies."

"Yes they were, though my understanding is that efforts to enslave the indigenous Americans were often unsuccessful (because they'd tend to kill themselves rather than endure slavery under the cruel Europeans), which is what led, in some places, to the preference for enslaving Africans."

Dead wrong. Indigenous Americans died because their immunological system could not endure infections that were common in that age. Nothing to do with giving them blankets used by smallpox sick people, as the USA's army did.
"In any case, if they weren't slaves in some places, they were hardly treated as equals of the Europeans. It's not accidental that Latin-American immigrants to the US are predominantly poor persons of largely non-European-ethnic ancestry."

It is not accidental at all: it just shows that, in Hispano-America, indigenous people survived to the point that nowadays they are in majority.
"It's not accidental that 'Latino' or 'Hispanic' came to be regarded as a quasi-racial group in the modern US; the ... persons were, in fact, of substantial non-European ancestry, descendants of, or themselves, victims of racism and racial-caste-ism of Latin America."

It is not accidental at all: it just shows that for many USA citizens it is necessary to label people ethnically.
"Slavery existed in *all* countries until the 19th century. Spain ... mixed with the poor Spaniards in those centuries without problem."

"Aha! If, as you say, Spaniards have no notion of 'race', how is it that you can speak of 'mixing with the poor Spaniards'"

If you want to take this conversation to a point where you say that I said what I didn't say, then you can keep on writing for yourself and your friends. I never told that Spaniards were blind to colours. I wrote that it is not important, as shows the fact that nowadays there is not distinct ethnic groups in Spain descendent from ancient slaves.
"the very way you frame the statement assumes that the black slaves in Spain were NOT Spaniards. Get's!"

Of course, when they were slaves they were not first class citizens. But when they ceased to be slaves, they had no problem to marry.

Anyway, you are out for me. I will not answer your answer, because you cannot read what I write without interpretating it the way you want.


Saludos cordiales
Javi
Conjunction of an irregular verb:
I am firm.
You are obstinate.
He is a pig-headed fool.
Javi    663321 Tue, 16 Sep 03 01:52 PM

(snip bla bla bla)
I don't answer to ignorants. Read some History. Learn what the "Spanish black legend" has of true. Learn what a "caste system" is. And think why there are so many indigenous in Hispano-America. As exterminators and enslavers, Anglos were a lot better than Spaniards, but you will not drive me to the stupid discussion "my ancestors were better than yours".


Javi
Conjunction of an irregular verb:
I am firm.
You are obstinate.
He is a pig-headed fool.
R F    663332 Tue, 16 Sep 03 02:01 PM

"I don't answer to ignorants. Read some History. Learn what the "Spanish black legend" has of true. Learn what a ... lot better than Spaniards, but you will not drive me to the stupid discussion "my ancestors were better than yours"."

My ancestors? Bwahahahahaha! My ancestors were cast out of Spain by your Castilosupremacist forefathers! And they weren't in North America during the period of the European-perpetrated Atrocities. I am no 'Anglo'; I am from the East Coast (Largest Coast in the Americas), where the concept of the 'Anglo' is completely foreign.
Get's!
R F
Javi    663446 Tue, 16 Sep 03 05:02 PM

"I don't answer to ignorants. Read some History. Learn what ... to the stupid discussion "my ancestors were better than yours"."

"My ancestors? Bwahahahahaha! My ancestors were cast out of Spain by your Castilosupremacist forefathers!"

I see. You are one from the chosen people. It is a great thing, and I understand that your ancestors preferred to emigrate rather than to give up their faith.

Saludos cordiales
Javi
Conjunction of an irregular verb:
I am firm.
You are obstinate.
He is a pig-headed fool.
R F    663472 Tue, 16 Sep 03 05:38 PM

"I see. You are one from the chosen people."

Yes, I'm from Brooklyn. (If Jan 'The Man' Sand is reading this: Yo, let my People go already!)
R F
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