[title]Family quotes[/title] [description]Welcome to our family quotes section! Here you'll find some of the funniest (and wisest) quotes on the subject of family life![/description]
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mickwick    663490 Tue, 16 Sep 03 07:19 PM

"There are a few groups who might want to quibble with that. In some cases, you'd have a hard time finding enough survivors, though."

"??? Nobody has survived the last three centuries. But there are several hundred millions of descendants of American indigenous in Hispano-America."

I think Evan was referring to the enslavement and consequent (and probably involuntary) genocide of the Arawaks and Caribs by the first Spaniards to settle in the New World.
"But as you are quick to point out, that's not ... got to rank reasonably high on any objective "racist" scale."

"This is quite relative. There were no Spanish racist laws in the hemisphere."

Oh dear. Yes there were. Otherwise why the Edict of Aranjuez of 10th February 1794 permitting non-criollos to adopt the title Don in the American empire?
"I suspect that, as racists, the Spanish empire would rank below the British, Dutch and French empires."

If it had survived longer, perhaps it would. The Spanish Crown and the Spanish Church do seem to have been concerned about the fates of the native peoples. But the Spanish Empire was an early European empire and in its heyday it was thoroughly racist in an early European way - in fact, in law, in toto.

Mickwick
Javi    663548 Tue, 16 Sep 03 09:32 PM

"I think Evan was referring to the enslavement and consequent (and probably involuntary) genocide of the Arawaks and Caribs by the first Spaniards to settle in the New World."

Involuntary genocide? Sounds odd.
"This is quite relative. There were no Spanish racist laws in the hemisphere."

"Oh dear. Yes there were. Otherwise why the Edict of Aranjuez of 10th February 1794 permitting non-criollos to adopt the title Don in the American empire?"

So, a law against racial privileges is an evidence of a racist society? And, as it seems, the worst thing for the non-criollos was that some criollos didn't allow them to use the title Don, and the Spanish Crown had to draw a law against this inhumane behaviour? Interesting. Let me think about it: some non-criollos wanted to use the title Don; this title was only used by wealthy or important people, so we have to assume that some non-criollos were wealthy or important people, wealthy or important enough as to make the Crown draw a law allowing them to use the title Don. And do you call this a racist society? I see it as less racist than the so-called "positive discrimination".
"I suspect that, as racists, the Spanish empire would rank below the British, Dutch and French empires."

"If it had survived longer, perhaps it would. The Spanish Crown and the Spanish Church do seem to have been concerned about the fates of the native peoples."

And do you really think that this is characteristic of a racist society? For me, it is just the opposite.
"But the Spanish Empire was an early European empire and in its heyday it was thoroughly racist in an early European way - in fact, in law, in toto."

If you say so... But I prefer facts to unknown people's opinions.


Saludos cordiales
Javi
Conjunction of an irregular verb:
I am firm.
You are obstinate.
He is a pig-headed fool.
Michael West    663600 Tue, 16 Sep 03 11:53 PM

"That's ambiguous. We Brits pronounce that first syllable to rhyme ... certainly don't rhyme it with "Macy", as Leftpondians prefer it."

"I think Leftpondians universally say /gleISR/ (or /gleIS@/ for non-rhotics). "Glay-sher", IYW, not "glay-see-er"."

That accords with my experience. And Australians older ones, certainly follow the British pronunciation.
Michael West
Melbourne, Australia
(Expat Yank)
Jerry Friedman    663660 Wed, 17 Sep 03 12:43 AM

"Read above: you said "we've never been racists"."

"Really? Did I wrote that verbatim? I must tell my psychiatrist that I write things that I don't remember later (or maybe it is just that you understand what you'd like to read).."

You wrote "We don't need to be a multiracial society because we've never been racists." It's at ; scroll up to your first response to Raymond Wise, currently response 27.

Jerry Friedman
Javi    663826 Wed, 17 Sep 03 10:05 AM

"Really? Did I wrote that verbatim? I must tell my ... is just that you understand what you'd like to read)."

Damn! I canceled that message few minutes after sending it, so I'll not answer any post about it.
"You wrote "We don't need to be a multiracial society because we've never been racists." It's at ; scroll up to your first response to Raymond Wise, currently response 27."

Yes, I wrote it, and I'm receiving due punishment.

But I still think that racism was not a characteristic of the Spanish empire, and certainly is not of the Spanish society.


Saludos cordiales
Javi
Conjunction of an irregular verb:
I am firm.
You are obstinate.
He is a pig-headed fool.
david56    663859 Wed, 17 Sep 03 10:24 AM

"Damn! I canceled that message few minutes after sending it, so I'll not answer any post about it."

Unfortunately, many Usenet servers do not properly process cancellation messages. Your posting might disappear from your own news service, but it's likely to stay out there for ever.

David
I say what it occurs to me to say.
==
The address is valid today, but I change it periodically.
Mark Browne    663939 Wed, 17 Sep 03 02:16 PM

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003, in message (Email Removed), Evan Kirshenbaum (Email Removed) writes
"That's it exactly. Spanish society as you present it is tolerant of differences as long as they're kept private. Gypsies who don't ... that as a mindset to be discouraged and, indeed, of evidence of what we call "racism" or at least bigotry."

Whilst I agree that this can be called "racist", having to fit in also applies to people who are nominally already part of "mainstream" society.
Saying that people should conform is not, of itself, racist. It is a characteristic of many societies, and is necessary for those societies to function. The question is whether the society is one that "should" function.

Mark Browne
If replying by email, please use the "Reply-To" address, as the "From" address will be rejected
Mark Browne    663948 Wed, 17 Sep 03 02:27 PM

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003, in message (Email Removed), Raymond S. Wise (Email Removed) writes
"I don't see how this can be reconciled with history. If nothing else, I would identify Spain as having had ... that did not exhibit some level of racism, and that includes the Soviet empire. It certainly includes the Spanish empire!"

Why do you say "after the 14th Century"? I would say that all empires are in some way racist, if only because they say "you are not fit to rule, so we will do it for you".

Mark Browne
If replying by email, please use the "Reply-To" address, as the "From" address will be rejected
mickwick    664018 Wed, 17 Sep 03 03:24 PM

"Oh dear. Yes there were. Otherwise why the Edict of Aranjuez of 10th February 1794 permitting non-criollos to adopt the title Don in the"
^
1795^^
"American empire?"

"So, a law against racial privileges is an evidence of a racist society?"

It can be, yes. In this case, it indicates that an edict was necessary to correct one aspect of the racist behaviour of the white (and self- declared white) colonists. It might also indicate that, before the edict, there had been a law forbidding non-whites to use the title Don, but I admit that this might not be the case: the edict might have been an attempt to correct behaviour not covered by earlier laws rather than to correct earlier laws.
It's worth noting that either this edict or a later one allowed non- whites (i.e., those who belonged to neither the peninsulares or criollo classes) to purchase a certificate declaring them to be white. Such a certificate wouldn't be worth having in a non-racist society.
"And, as it seems, the worst thing for the non-criollos was that some criollos didn't allow them to use the title Don, and the Spanish Crown had to draw a law against this inhumane behaviour?"

No, that wasn't the worst thing. I was just trying to show that there were indeed 'racist laws in the hemisphere', but I'm not sure I succeeded in that.
"Interesting. Let me think about it: some non-criollos wanted to use the title Don; this title was only used by ... Don. And do you call this a racist society? I see it as less racist than the so-called "positive discrimination"."

An entertaining argument but, alas, not very convincing. Every book and website I can find says that Spanish colonial society was organised according to race and class - and class was determined almost entirely by race. The criollos were subordinate to the peninsulares because, unlike the peninsulares, they couldn't prove that their blood was 100% Spanish. (A meaningless boast given Spain's history but it was considered important at the time.) This made them very prickly on the subject of race and they furiously defended the large gap between themselves and the next group down, the half-castes. (Pardos?) Then came the Indians, then the free blacks, then the black slaves.

But I'm sure you know all this.
"If it had survived longer, perhaps it would. The Spanish ... have been concerned about the fates of the native peoples."

"And do you really think that this is characteristic of a racist society? For me, it is just the opposite."

It supports some of what you have been saying about peninsular Spain not being racist. The Crown and Church spent centuries trying to force the colonial aristocracy to treat the Indians and half-castes more fairly. But the colonials took very little notice and Spanish America continued to be racist from top to bottom right up until independence.
"But the Spanish Empire was an early European empire and ... early European way - in fact, in law, in toto."

"If you say so... But I prefer facts to unknown people's opinions."

Well, a google with (criollos peninsulares Indians site:.edu) should point you to the generally accepted facts about the social structure of Spanish America. I assume that named academics at respected universities are acceptable to you.

Mick 'The Unknown Person' wick
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