[title]Family quotes[/title] [description]Welcome to our family quotes section! Here you'll find some of the funniest (and wisest) quotes on the subject of family life![/description]
Learn English and meet people on the world’s largest EFL social network

We have partnered with TradePub to bring you free industry magazines and resources - no coupons or credit cards required!

Visit: englishforums.tradepub.com


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
Share this topic:
mickwick    664026 Wed, 17 Sep 03 03:29 PM

"It is curious that a country whose Crown tried to dismantle racial privileges be called racist. Which were those racial privileges? I guess that they were not sanctioned by law."

You might be right, I don't know. But the privileges were certainly sanctioned by custom and by the town councils and other local bodies that administered justice at a practical level in Spanish America.

The problem here seems to be that we are arguing about different things - or, more accurately, I am arguing about one thing and sometimes you have also been arguing about that same one thing but at other times you have been arguing about two or three other things as well. I'd say the things are as follows:
Me: Spanish America was racist from top to bottom.

You: (a) No, it wasn't.
(b) It might have been but racism wasn't legally sanctioned. (c) It might have been but European Spain wasn't.
I agree with (c) up to a point.
I don't know the facts about (b) but suspect that there were indeed local laws that contradicted the edicts that arrived from faraway Spain from time to time. I do know that the colonial aristocracy ignored many of those edicts.
I disagree with (a).
"The important point, as I see it, is that a country whose laws sanction racial discrimination is a racist country, and one that doesn't is not."

Laws aren't everything.
"What about the early island colonies?"

"I see that you have done your homework. The fact is that as soon as 1542, the Spanish Crown clearly stated through its laws that the American indigenous were not slaves but freemen."

This is true. They were no longer slaves in any official or legal sense. But most of them were effectively enslaved by the various tribute and forced-labour laws - or, more accurately, by the interpretation the criollos chose to take of those laws.
"Or the later mita system of forced labour. Or the slavery of the llaneros?"

"Which slavery is that of the llaneros? I've never heard about it."

Well, I'm busking really. Most of the llaneros were slaves, I think, and some them were Indians. Therefore I thought it possible that some of the Indians on the llanos were slaves.
But really I just wanted to talk about the Legion of Hell.
"(Will someone please ask me about the Legion of Hell? There's nudity, posh furs, bamboo, and undeviating savagery.)"

"Ok. What is that Legion of Hell? Bamboo, the plant?"

Yes.
It looks like someone has just published a book about the Legion:

http://www.centvria.com/catalogo/colonial/fal-004.htm

Anyway, the Legion (or Division) of Hell was a force of slave-cowboy cavalry that rode into battle under a black flag known as the Pennant of Death. They usually wore nothing but crude rawhide chaps and a jaguar- skin cap. They lived on raw beef that had been tenderised under their saddles for a few hours. Their only weapons were a bamboo spear and a complete and utter ruthlessness. They were, perhaps, the nastiest cavalrymen the world has ever seen. They might have been caballeros but they weren't gentlemen.
(Incidentally, it's said that the motto of the ruling classes in Spanish America was 'Todo blanco es caballero'.)

Mickwick
Evan Kirshenbaum    664056 Wed, 17 Sep 03 04:41 PM

"I don't see how this can be reconciled with history. ... includes the Soviet empire. It certainly includes the Spanish empire!"

"Why do you say "after the 14th Century"? I would say that all empires are in some way racist, if only because they say "you are not fit to rule, so we will do it for you"."
This may just be my own personal spin on things, but it's always seemed to me that most empires and most slavery before interaction with the Americas and with sub-Saharan Africa had more of the flavor of "There but for the grace of (pick your favorite deity) go I". The ones on top didn't view themselves as inherently better, just currently stronger, and there was a recognition that in other times, the shoe might well have been on the other foot, and the subjugated people might have had an empire that included dominion over the subjugators.

And, indeed, there might well be historical record of exactly that. The current imperialists wouldn't have liked that as well, but they wouldn't have considered it viscerally "wrong" in the way colonialist Europeans would have felt about being subject to an Indian or African empire.

Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >Pious Jews have a category of
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 >questions that can harmlessly bePalo Alto, CA 94304 >allowed to go without an answer

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
R F  , 6 yr 70 days ago

(Javi:)
"Interesting. Let me think about it: some non-criollos wanted to ... see it as less racist than the so-called "positive discrimination"."

"An entertaining argument but, alas, not very convincing. Every book and website I can find says that Spanish colonial society ... subject of race and they furiously defended the large gap between themselves and the next group down, the half-castes. (Pardos?)"

So which class did Don Pardo belong to?
mickwick    664123 Wed, 17 Sep 03 06:01 PM

"So which class did Don Pardo belong to?"

The 49.43% Annoying class.
http://www.amiannoying.com/2002/view.aspx?ID=5106

Mick 'Tell them what they won' wick
mickwick    664126 Wed, 17 Sep 03 06:13 PM

"So which class did Don Pardo belong to?"

"The 49.43% Annoying class."

Incidentally, an MP3 out there on the WWW suggests that Don Pardo (of whom I had never heard until just now) is WIW - 'Wont'-Is-'Want'.

Mickwick
Evan Kirshenbaum    664136 Wed, 17 Sep 03 06:26 PM

"The 49.43% Annoying class."

"Incidentally, an MP3 out there on the WWW suggests that Don Pardo (of whom I had never heard until just now) is WIW - 'Wont'-Is-'Want'."

As am I, but where did you find an MP3 of him saying "wont"?

Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >The law of supply and demand tells us
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 >that when the price of something isPalo Alto, CA 94304 >artificially set below market level,
mickwick    664144 Wed, 17 Sep 03 06:27 PM

"Why do you say "after the 14th Century"? I would ... fit to rule, so we will do it for you"."

"This may just be my own personal spin on things, but it's always seemed to me that most empires and ... it viscerally "wrong" in the way colonialist Europeans would have felt about being subject to an Indian or African empire."

I think the British Empire had a largely 'There but for the grace ...' flavour until the Indian Mutiny or thereabouts. Afterwards, it became far more pompous, triumphalist, Whiggish and racist. (The Mutiny itself wasn't necessarily the trigger for this, but the change happened at about that time.)

Mickwick
mickwick    664164 Wed, 17 Sep 03 06:47 PM

"Incidentally, an MP3 out there on the WWW suggests that Don Pardo (of whom I had never heard until just now) is WIW - 'Wont'-Is-'Want'."

"As am I, but where did you find an MP3 of him saying "wont"?"

I didn't really. I heard him say 'want' and assumed that he would say 'wont' in the same way. I think this is the link:
http://www.wfmu.org/listen.ram?show=5227&drop=17

Mickwick
Evan Kirshenbaum    664168 Wed, 17 Sep 03 06:49 PM

"I think the British Empire had a largely 'There but for the grace ...' flavour until the Indian Mutiny or ... Whiggish and racist. (The Mutiny itself wasn't necessarily the trigger for this, but the change happened at about that time.)"

I guess that's true to some extent with regard to their actual tributaries, but that's only because they largely viewed Indians in North America as an obstacle to be removed and Africans as fit to be property. (I'm speaking of pre-nineteenth century here, although their heirs in America kept it up considerably longer.)

Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories > Bauplan is just the German word
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 >for blueprint. Typically, onePalo Alto, CA 94304 >switches languages to indicate

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
© MediaCet Ltd. 2009, v5.0.3616.28671. All content posted by our users is a contribution to the public domain, this does not include imported usenet posts.*
For web related enquires please contact us on webmaster@mediacet.com, status updates are available at status.mediacet.com.
*Usenet post removal: Use 'X-No-Archive'. You may not have understood that your posts would end up in the public domain. Please send proof of the poster's email, we will remove immediately.