Evan Kirshenbaum    664191 Wed, 17 Sep 03 07:00 PM "As am I, but where did you find an MP3 of him saying "wont"?" "I didn't really. I heard him say 'want' and assumed that he would say 'wont' in the same way." MWCD10 gives three pronunciations for "want": /wOnt/, also /wAnt/, /w@nt/ and four for "wont": /wOnt/, /woUnt/, also /w@nt/, /wAnt/. (The "also" means "the ones that follow are significantly less common".) Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >Marge: You liked Rashomon. 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 >Homer: That's not how *I* rememberPalo Alto, CA 94304 > it. (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan Kirshenbaum

	R F    664219 Wed, 17 Sep 03 07:24 PM "I didn't really. I heard him say 'want' and assumed that he would say 'wont' in the same way." "MWCD10 gives three pronunciations for "want": /wOnt/, also /wAnt/, /w@nt/ and four for "wont": /wOnt/, /woUnt/, also /w@nt/, /wAnt/. (The "also" means "the ones that follow are significantly less common".)" I say "want" as /wAnt/; I'm surprised to learn that it is significantly less common than /wOnt/. I also say "wont" as /wAnt/, but then it's not a word I say very often. Offhand I can't think of any or words where I use the "caught" vowel /O/ rather than the "cot" vowel /A/. /woUnt/ for "wont" seems like it should be regarded as an error, to me. R F Vowels, Mistakes

	mickwick    664262 Wed, 17 Sep 03 08:14 PM "I think the British Empire had a largely 'There but ... for this, but the change happened at about that time.)" "I guess that's true to some extent with regard to their actual tributaries, but that's only because they largely viewed ... fit to be property. (I'm speaking of pre-nineteenth century here, although their heirs in America kept it up considerably longer.)" (I'm not sure I totally understand your point but what the hell ...) I'm on the same ground as Javi here. It seems that American Britons were more racist in their attitudes towards Indians than the home government and other leading people in the home country were. Indeed I believe that, just as in Spanish America, British 'criollo' disgust at the home government's concern for Indians was one of the major causes of the move towards independence. The 'Thou shalt pay the cost of policing the Appalachian watershed to prevent further expansion "edict"', for example. So I don't really agree that (European) Britain saw America's Indians as 'obstacles to be removed': that was how leading elements in British America thought. Africans 'fit to be property'? Yes. (Also Europeans. Wives, for example.) And such attitudes were undoubtedly found on racism. (And sexism.) I concede the point. Mickwick mickwick Regards, Marriage, Countries, Relationships, Friendships, United States, American, Speaking, Chat, Languages

	R H Draney    664277 Wed, 17 Sep 03 08:37 PM R F filted: "/woUnt/ for "wont" seems like it should be regarded as an error, to me." It's the pronunciation used by Jonathan Miller in the person of Bertrand Russell...if it's an error, it's one made by some pretty educated people.. The central point of the same sketch, by the way, may shed some light on the nearby thread about saying "keys" when only one key is meant...if I interpret it correctly, it seems to be saying that "any apples" and "some apples" cannot refer to a set with some unspecified cardinality, but that "apples" *can* describe the same number...if the number is unity, then by analogy "keys" can refer to a single key..r R H Draney Pronunciation, Analogies, Mistakes, Speaking, Writing

	mickwick    664274 Wed, 17 Sep 03 08:38 PM "MWCD10 gives three pronunciations for "want": /wOnt/, also /wAnt/, /w@nt/ ... "also" means "the ones that follow are significantly less common".)" "I say "want" as /wAnt/; I'm surprised to learn that it is significantly less common than /wOnt/. I also say ... rather than the "cot" vowel /A/. /woUnt/ for "wont" seems like it should be regarded as an error, to me." I think /woUnt/ is the most common British pronunciation. I'm /woUnt/, anyway. (I'm /w@nt/ for 'want', more or less.) Mickwick mickwick Vowels, Pronunciation, Mistakes, Speaking

	Javi    664312 Wed, 17 Sep 03 09:28 PM "I guess that's true to some extent with regard to ... although their heirs in America kept it up considerably longer.)" "(I'm not sure I totally understand your point but what the hell ...) I'm on the same ground as Javi ... that was how leading elements in British America thought. Africans 'fit to be property'? Yes. (Also Europeans. Wives, for example.)" I want to add that white slaves (debt slaves) where not uncommon in the Americas prior to the nineteenth century. "And such attitudes were undoubtedly found on racism. (And sexism.) I concede the point."  Saludos cordiales Javi Conjunction of an irregular verb: I am firm. You are obstinate. He is a pig-headed fool. Javi Regards, Marriage, Countries, Relationships, Colours, United States, Refinancing

	Jonathan Jordan    664328 Wed, 17 Sep 03 10:07 PM "MWCD10 gives three pronunciations for "want": /wOnt/, also /wAnt/, /w@nt/ ... "also" means "the ones that follow are significantly less common".)" "I say "want" as /wAnt/; I'm surprised to learn that it is significantly less common than /wOnt/. I also say ... rather than the "cot" vowel /A/. /woUnt/ for "wont" seems like it should be regarded as an error, to me." According to Chambers "wont" is "historically /wVnt/, commonly /woUnt/" (my interpretation of their pronunciation symbols). But I think it's also commonly /wA.nt/. Former UK Prime Minister John Major supposedly pronounced "want" as /wVnt/, though I don't remember ever noticing this myself. I think it's usually /wA.nt/ in the UK, and I haven't noticed the "caught" vowel version /wOnt/ for either word. Jonathan Jonathan Jordan Vowels, Pronunciation, Mistakes, Speaking

	Raymond S. Wise    664343 Wed, 17 Sep 03 10:53 PM "I don't see how this can be reconciled with history. ... includes the Soviet empire. It certainly includes the Spanish empire!" "Why do you say "after the 14th Century"? I would say that all empires are in some way racist, if only because they say "you are not fit to rule, so we will do it for you"." You and I disagree on what constitutes racism, then. To me, racism must be a belief which attributes qualities to another race that extend to each individual member. I can well imagine the Roman Empire ruled by a black African, if an emperor had chosen such a man to be his successor. I can't imagine that happening with the British Empire. Now, there may well have been racist empires before the 14th century. My knowledge of history is not sufficient to point any out. There was the belief held by Aristotle that barbarians had "slavish natures," which is why they could be controlled by despotic rulers, which nature, if thought to be inborn and I suspect Aristotle thought so would be a type of racism. I don't know if any empires were built by people before the 15th century who were inspired by Aristotle and held that belief. Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com Raymond S. Wise Countries, Colours, United States, Languages

	Simon R. Hughes    664352 Wed, 17 Sep 03 11:02 PM Thus spake Raymond S. Wise: "You and I disagree on what constitutes racism, then. To me, racism must be a belief which attributes qualities to ... if any empires were built by people before the 15th century who were inspired by Aristotle and held that belief." Racism is an act, or pattern of actions. Conquering a territory and treating its people like dirt unless they convert and become Roman (or French) is an example of such actions. An extreme example even. It doesn't matter that the Romans didn't refer to the Gauls as Frogs, or think of them as stinking of garlic. Simon R. Hughes Simon R. Hughes Languages