And I would specifically exclude the possibility that "Conquering a territory and treating its people like dirt unless they convert and become Roman (or French) " could be, in itself, an example of racism. In a true example of racism, there is no possibility of conversion.

The modern idea of race and racism cannot escape the influence of pseudoscientific ideas of race which developed after the time of the Romans. If I thought that the Spanish were entirely free of ideas influenced by such pseudoscientific theories of race, I would not consider their desire that minorities conform to be racist: It would have to be called something else. I would, in other words, be in agreement with Javi that the Spanish are not racist. Well, that's not how I feel about modern Spain I don't think they can possibly have escaped the influence of modern racist theories. It is, however, how I feel about ancient Rome. Trying to convert other peoples to the worship of your own god or gods is insufficient to constitute racism, as is making other peoples give tribute to your state.

This raises the question of whether the Romans could, even in principle, have been anything which we recognize as "racist." They certainly could not have been racist in the pseudoscientific sense without recognized science with which to compare the pseudoscience. They could, however, have had stereotypical ideas about other peoples which were based upon a belief of something which "ran in the blood." They could have extrapolated from the observation of other species rabbits are "timid," lions are "brave" to the idea that people A is "timid" and people B is "brave" based upon something in the blood. If they had done that, I think we could consider that a type of prescientific racism. I have no reason to believe that they actually did do something like that.
As for the Spanish, French, and British, racist ideas developed among them before they developed pseudoscientific theories about race. Pseudoscientific racism came about as a way of justifying such ideas. However, in my opinion, science was sufficiently developed by that time that we can identify such racism as ** rather than **.

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

^
^^


I believe the latter is the right case.

I'd like to know whether in other societies there was the possibility that a non-white person could purchase a certificate of "whiteness". I see it more as an evidence of a classist society than a racist one.

(snip)

Here we disagree: I think that class was determined by one's ancestors' religious status and, above all, by money, as a certificate of being "cristiano viejo" could be also purchased.

I know this is part of the "Spanish black legend".


This is really wrong: Independence didn't change the status of non-criollos. I'd say that it worsened it, as the criollos didn't have the Crown's constraint, who, as you point, had interest in a more fair treatment to Indians and half-castes.


I'll have a look at it.

Saludos cordiales
Javi
Conjunction of an irregular verb:
I am firm.
You are obstinate.
He is a pig-headed fool.

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, in message
, Javi (Email Removed) writes
^^
I like that.

Mark Browne
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