Dave Swindell    606181 Wed, 21 Jan 04 08:51 AM A prime example is the increasingly common American pronunciation of "en route" as "enn rowt". I call it "misplaced literacy", because they honestly believe that it should be pronounced like it is spellt. It is interesting to me as a new phenomenon in linguistic change which is driven by the written word. Before the growth of universal literacy changes in pronunciation were driven mainly by the influence of one's peers, friends and neighbours. A parallel influence comes from the entertainment media, with, in Britain in particular, the growing habit of a rising cadence at the end of a non-questioning sentence, which has come in with the long-running Australian soap operas on TV over the past 20 years or so. A few hundred years ago these influences simply did not exist, and linguistic change was rather slower. Dave OSOS#24 (Email Removed) Remove my gerbil for email replies Yamaha XJ900S & Wessex sidecar, the sexy one Yamaha XJ900F & Watsonian Monaco, the comfortable one http://dswindell.members.beeb.net Dave Swindell Pronunciation

	Molly Mockford    606191 Wed, 21 Jan 04 08:59 AM On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, Dave Swindell (Email Removed) wrote in (Email Removed): "A prime example is the increasingly common American pronunciation of "en route" as "enn rowt". I call it "misplaced literacy", because they honestly believe that it should be pronounced like it is spellt." It'll be interesting when they get around to Grand Prix. Molly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) Molly Mockford Pronunciation

	Matthew Huntbach    606212 Wed, 21 Jan 04 10:48 AM "A prime example is the increasingly common American pronunciation of "en route" as "enn rowt". I call it "misplaced literacy", ... years or so. A few hundred years ago these influences simply did not exist, and linguistic change was rather slower." No, linguistic change was much faster. If there were no written records or national media to tell you that "must of" was wrong and "must have" was correct, "must of" would become correct within a generation. The fact that we have written texts going back many years acts as a huge drag on linguistic development. If the only language you were aware of was that spoken by your neighbours, what was colloquial for one generation would become the standard for the next, to be replaced by new colloquialisms in the following generation. Throughout the world and history it can be observed that where there is little literacy or central government or culture, languages diverge very rapidly. Matthew Huntbach Matthew Huntbach Pronunciation, Colloquialisms

	Peter Duncanson    606303 Wed, 21 Jan 04 04:25 PM On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 08:51:08 +00, Dave Swindell "A prime example is the increasingly common American pronunciation of "en route" as "enn rowt". I call it "misplaced literacy", because they honestly believe that it should be pronounced like it is spellt." This might be partially corrected by a spelling I saw recently: "on route". It was either US or British, but I don't recall which. Peter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e) Peter Duncanson Spelling, Pronunciation

	Adrian Bailey    606335 Wed, 21 Jan 04 07:52 PM "Adrian Bailey > uk.culture.language.english in Ok, but there was a not very good pronunciation in the first place, I guess. Children learn to speak before they can write." Given that there was once a time when no-one said "must of", there must have been, and must be, people who (have) changed from the "must've" to the "must of" pronunciation during their lives, under the influence of what they have seen and/or heard. Once "must of" is established in people they will pass it on to their peers and to their children. Adrian Adrian Bailey Pronunciation

	Molly Mockford    606347 Wed, 21 Jan 04 08:07 PM On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, Peter Duncanson (Email Removed) wrote in (Email Removed): "A prime example is the increasingly common American pronunciation of ... believe that it should be pronounced like it is spellt." "This might be partially corrected by a spelling I saw recently: "on route". It was either US or British, but I don't recall which." The Americans would still pronounce route as rout, though. They think our (well, actually the French) pronunciation rather amusing. So do the Australians, although for a different reason. Molly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) Molly Mockford Spelling, Pronunciation

	Dave Swindell    606437 Wed, 21 Jan 04 10:38 PM "A prime example is the increasingly common American pronunciation of ... simply did not exist, and linguistic change was rather slower." "No, linguistic change was much faster. If there were no written records or national media to tell you that "must of" was wrong and "must have" was correct, "must of" would become correct within a generation." Perhaps I should have been a bit more precise on what I was talking about in "linguistic change". There are all sorts of things to do with simplification of grammar, attrition of dialect and change of accent. But nevertheless I disagree with you. My particular experience relates to Northumberland in England. Chaucer apes the Northumbrian dialect/accent in the Canterbury Tales, because it was the country bumkin accent of its time, for educated southerners at least. His aping of the dialect still rings true today in rural areas, and is also reflected in the wealth of dialect writing up today; and I assure you that Northumbrian dialect is alive and well. The dialect is certainly changing in some areas, with particular influences identified in old industrialised areas where incomers came from many parts of Britain particularly during the 19th century. The language of the aspiring "upper class" is also rather different from the dialect such people may have used in the streets as children, with many words being dropped, and the accent "tidied up" to sound, to their ears, a bit posher. So, in Northumberland at least, there was little change in the dialect from before Chaucer's time till well into the 19th century. Since then education, mobility and visual/aural entertainment and news media have all taken their toll. Dave OSOS#24 (Email Removed) Remove my gerbil for email replies Yamaha XJ900S & Wessex sidecar, the sexy one Yamaha XJ900F & Watsonian Monaco, the comfortable one http://dswindell.members.beeb.net Dave Swindell Accents, Dialects, Pronunciation

	Gwilym Calon    606401 Wed, 21 Jan 04 11:06 PM "The Americans would still pronounce route as rout, though. They think our (well, actually the French) pronunciation rather amusing. So do the Australians, although for a different reason." The Australians find our pronunciation funny? Hmm.. (at least we don't make all nouns end in "ee") GC Gwilym Calon Nouns, Pronunciation

	Peter Duncanson    606402 Wed, 21 Jan 04 11:06 PM "This might be partially corrected by a spelling I saw recently: "on route". It was either US or British, but I don't recall which." "The Americans would still pronounce route as rout, though. They think our (well, actually the French) pronunciation rather amusing. So do the Australians, although for a different reason." A year or so ago there was a discussion on the American pronunciation(s) of route on another newsgroup. I can't recall how long the discussion lasted, but it was at least two days. One evening in the middle of it I was flicking through channels on the TV and saw a minute or so of an American movie in which two characters were discussing what route to take. One consistently used the "root" pronunciation, and the other used "rowt". It was not a recent movie. Peter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e) Peter Duncanson Spelling, Pronunciation