Me asking is kind of sign.

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Anonymous  #468241  Thu, 24 Jan 08 05:55 AM

Thanks, CalifJim. but what do you mean by the red part?

 CalifJim wrote:
I just realized that "asking" could be regarded as modifying "Me" and "Me" here is the subject.
No.  I don't think that analysis does the job.  me by itself can't be a subject.  At best, the implied clause me asking would be the subject.   But the use of that sort of subject puts the statement in a lower register.

The following all have the same basic meaning.

That I should ask is a kind of sign.
For me to ask is a kind of sign.
Me asking is a kind of sign.
My asking is a kind of sign.

(Subjects underlined.)

CJ

  
Nemessos  #468268  Thu, 24 Jan 08 09:15 AM

The following all have the same basic meaning.


Me asking is a kind of sign.
My asking is a kind of sign.

Calif Jim, does that mean both the above are grammatically correct, including 'Me asking is a kind of sign.' ??

What about :

'His leaving home plunged his widowed mother into a deep depression' and

'Him leaving home plunged his widowed mother into a deep depression'

Thanks!

  
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Anonymous  #468437  Thu, 24 Jan 08 05:29 PM

The point is to understanding "Me asking ..." and "Him leaving ...".

By my understanding of what CalifJim said, "me" itself can not be a subject. But the constructure "me asking" as a whole can be a subject, where "asking" modifies "me". So if you regard "me asking" as a short phrase, it should be easier to understand why it can be a subject, and it is as natural as the following sentence:

The girl asking question is clever.

Therefore, I think your second sentence "Him leaving home ..." should be right.

But I think both of them are not as normal as "My asking ..." and "His leaving ..."

Am I right, great teachers?

 Nemessos wrote:

The following all have the same basic meaning.


Me asking is a kind of sign.
My asking is a kind of sign.

Calif Jim, does that mean both the above are grammatically correct, including 'Me asking is a kind of sign.' ??

What about :

'His leaving home plunged his widowed mother into a deep depression' and

'Him leaving home plunged his widowed mother into a deep depression'

Thanks!

  
Anonymous  #468599  Fri, 25 Jan 08 03:19 AM

Sure this person is just not asking . . .  Can I ask your sign (astrological)?

  
CalifJim  #468632  Fri, 25 Jan 08 04:44 AM
... in a lower register ...

See Post:352350.

CJ

  
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CalifJim  #468637  Fri, 25 Jan 08 05:21 AM
Calif Jim, does that mean both the above are grammatically correct, including 'Me asking is a kind of sign.' ??
In some cases people disagree when making judgments of grammaticality.  Some people think both are grammatically correct; some people think only the ones with my or his are correct.  I believe that both forms can be considered correct as long as it is understood that the ones with me or him are much less formal.

When in doubt, use the possessives my, his, etc.  But note that there are cases where the object form (me, him, etc.)  is clearly the correct one, from the point of view of meaning.

I can't see him accepting that excuse, for example, makes more sense (to me) than I can't see his accepting that excuse.  The first sentence is an idiomatic expression meaning I can't imagine that he would accept that excuse.  The second, starting with I can't see his ... makes us think the sentence will continue with some concrete noun that literally cannot be seen, like I can't see his hat.  But not being able to see his accepting ( ! ) strikes us as strange.  On or near which part of him is his "accepting"?

To take other examples, you can't use the possessive after the verb catch or hear as in the following structures:

Ed caught [him / *his] opening the mail.
I heard [him / *his] being interrogated by the boss.

[As usual, * indicates 'ungrammatical']

CJ

  
CalifJim  #468641  Fri, 25 Jan 08 05:50 AM
<<

By my understanding of what CalifJim said, "me" itself can not be a subject. Yes.  That's right. But the constructure construction "me asking" as a whole can be a subject Yes, where "asking" modifies "me" No, it's not a matterof modifying. "me asking" as a whole can be a subject where me asking is a clause with the internal structure having me as the subject of the clause and asking the verb of the clause.  Thus, that I (should) ask becomes me asking.
_________

An aside:

The use of objective case for the subject of a subordinate clause is common in English.  I want him to write a letter.  What do I want?  that he (will) write a letter.  The subject of the subordinate clause (he) becomes him; the verb write becomes the infinitive to writeI want { him to write a letter }.

In a case like I resent him opening the letter, the transformation is different, but the principle is the same.  What do I resent?  that he opened the letter.  The subject of the subordinate clause (he) becomes him; the verb opened becomes the gerund openingI resent { him opening the letter }.  Alternately, the subject becomes hisI resent his opening the letter.  In this version the clause-like nature of what is resented is less obvious.
_________

So if you regard "me asking" as a short phrase, it should be easier to understand why it can be a subject, and it is as natural as the following sentence:

The girl asking a/the question is clever.  This example does show modification.  Most likely, in the typical interpretation,  asking the question modifies the girl.

But these examples show the clause ideas explained above.

I resent [him / his] asking the question.
Do you object to [me / my] asking the question?

>>

CJ

  
Nemessos  #468810  Fri, 25 Jan 08 05:06 PM
Thank you Anonymous, in particular JL for the explanations.  I reckon I'll have to read several times the above in order to really understand.   Smile [:)]
  
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