meaning of sentences

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Yoong Liat

#341214 Tue, 20 Mar 07 07:49 AM

1. All the pupils are absent.

2. All the pupils are not present.

Is sentence 2 correct and has the same meaning as sentence 1?

Yoong Liat

Joined on Mon, Sep 4 2006

Singapore

Veteran Member (6,008)

Yoong Liat

Doll

#341259 Tue, 20 Mar 07 10:10 AM

I think they are correct and have the same meaning.

Doll

Joined on Sat, Mar 10 2007

Turkey

Senior Member (2,519)

I am a netizen!

Bird Of Paradise

#341293 Tue, 20 Mar 07 12:28 PM

I would say,
1. All the pupils are absent. = There is no pupil (in the class).
2. All the pupils are not present. = Some of the pupils are absent, while some of them are present.

Bird Of Paradise

Joined on Thu, Feb 15 2007

Junior Member (99)

I would appreciate it if anyone would correct my grammar mistakes if there are any. ( Even in this sentence.) TO THINE OWN SELF BE TRUE,

milky

#341294 Tue, 20 Mar 07 12:29 PM

I agree.

milky

Joined on Thu, Jan 15 2004

Senior Member (3,149)

Hume said that if we had perfect or complete descriptive knowledge of reality, we could not, by reasoning, derive a single valid "ought".

Kooyeen

#341354 Tue, 20 Mar 07 03:34 PM

Yoong Liat wrote:
1. All the pupils are absent.

2. All the pupils are not present.

Is sentence 2 correct and has the same meaning as sentence 1?

Hi Yoong,
the second sentence has two meanings. All the pupils are not present could mean:
- None of the pupils are present. (this is the usual meaning)
- Not all the pupils are present. (=at least one is not present)

Now, even though "None of the pupils are present" is the usual meaning, that sentence could still be ambiguous and it's badly stated anyway. So I always try to avoid that construction and use either sentences like "None of the pupils are present" or like "Not all the pupils are present", according to what I need to say.
Hope it helps a little. Smile [:)]

PS: I wonder who Milky agreed with... Doll or Bird? umm...

Kooyeen

Joined on Thu, Dec 22 2005

Italy

Senior Member (3,973)

If you don't have a sense of humor already, it's about time you buy one.

Constructions

Yoong Liat

#341356 Tue, 20 Mar 07 03:44 PM

Milky agrees with 'Bird of Paradise'.

Yoong Liat

Lil' Ruby Rose

#341386 Tue, 20 Mar 07 05:03 PM

I disagree. If I meant some of the pupils were present and some were absent, I would only say:

Not all (of) the pupils are present.

To me, 'all the pupils are not present' means they are all not here.

Lil' Ruby Rose

Joined on Wed, Dec 20 2006

West of England

Regular Member (850)

Enlightenment is always preceded by confusion.

Grammar Geek

#341397 Tue, 20 Mar 07 06:10 PM

If we have this level of disagreement, then we have ambiguity that needs to be corrected.

If someone said "We can't start the class yet! All the pupils aren't present," then in that context, you would infer that some are there, but some are still missing.

Even without this context, that would actually be my first interpretation.

So, much as it pains me to ever disagree with LRR, it's perhaps a BrE/AmE thing, or perhaps simply hard to tell.

Grammar Geek

Joined on Tue, Jan 10 2006

Pennsylvania, USA

Veteran Member (15,583)

Barbara, who answers in American English.

Lil' Ruby Rose

#341399 Tue, 20 Mar 07 06:16 PM

You say tomato...

If someone said that, I'd understand what they meant. If I said it, I'd say "We can't start the class yet! Not all of the pupils are present!". But maybe it's just me. A pernicketty old mare.

...and I say tomato.

Lil' Ruby Rose

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