Charles Riggs    964006 Wed, 21 Jul 04 09:31 AM "It's a technical term, certainly, defined in terms of other ... there is no convenient alternative way of expressing the idea." "Whether there exist convenient alternative ways of expressing an idea is irrelevant to whether a word expressing that idea is jargon or not. "Microsome" is jargon." Jargon or not, any word can be defined. She Who Must be Obeyed informed us just yesterday that dictionaries still have a function, so I'd think that would be the main one they have. Charles Riggs Charles Riggs

	Charles Riggs    964021 Wed, 21 Jul 04 09:56 AM "Whether there exist convenient alternative ways of expressing an idea ... expressing that idea is jargon or not. "Microsome" is jargon." "If you make no distinction between jargon and technical language, then OK, but "jargon" has a pejorative implication that is inappropriate when the words in question are the clearest one could use to convey the ideas to the people to whom they are directed." Then the dictionary should preface such definitions with the warning 'This definition is not intended for you unless you're a specialist: someone who probably knows the meaning already, but we wanted to make sure. Don't read on'. I don't find your arguments attempting to justify unclear English convincing. Any word can be defined so that any halfway well-educated reader can understand the wording. Name me one word, or even a concept, that can't be so defined, and I'll send you a cigar. Charles Riggs Charles Riggs Whom

	Mike Lyle    964137 Wed, 21 Jul 04 06:32 PM "Take some other piece of jargon, say "mizzen". Let's see what the definitions look like to somebody (say, me) who ... leaves "fore-and-aft" and "mizzenmast". A "mizzenmast" is "the mast aft or next aft of the mainmast in a ship"." A naval-architectural puzzle: A 'mizzenmast' is stepped, as you say, aft of the main. But the word comes from the French misaine , a foresail; in French, therefore, the mât de misaine is a foremast. This, I assume, means that very early on, Frenchmen added a subsidiary mast at the front ; Englishmen liked the idea and the name, but added their own go-faster accessory at the back of the ship. I'd like to know why. Then put in a further fact, that misaine comes from the Italian adj mezzana : this means 'middle'. Which of the possible forces of the Italian for 'middle' was involved? What was going on? Mike Mike Lyle

	Evan Kirshenbaum    964152 Wed, 21 Jul 04 07:30 PM "Then the dictionary should preface such definitions with the warning 'This definition is not intended for you unless you're a specialist: someone who probably knows the meaning already, but we wanted to make sure. Don't read on'." How about "This definition is not intended for you unless you either know the meanings of the words it contains or are willing to look them up." There's no point in using a paraphrase if there's a word that means what you want. Someone who knows what a ribosome is, but isn't sure whether they're included in the definition of "microsome" will get the answer from that definition. Someone who doesn't will either be satisfied by learning that it includes "something called ribosomes" or they'll look "ribosome" up. Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >A specification which calls for 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 >network-wide use of encryption, butPalo Alto, CA 94304 >invokes the Tooth Fairy to handle (650)857-7572 > Henry Spencer http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan Kirshenbaum

	Michael Nitabach    964154 Wed, 21 Jul 04 07:41 PM "Whether there exist convenient alternative ways of expressing an idea ... expressing that idea is jargon or not. "Microsome" is jargon." "If you make no distinction between jargon and technical language, then OK, but "jargon" has a pejorative implication that is inappropriate when the words in question are the clearest one could use to convey the ideas to the people to whom they are directed." Have you tried looking "jargon" up in a dictionary? There are senses that have no pejorative implication at all. Mike Nitabach Michael Nitabach Whom

	John Dean    964213 Thu, 22 Jul 04 12:26 AM "Take some other piece of jargon, say "mizzen". Let's see ... or next aft of the mainmast in a ship"." "A naval-architectural puzzle: A 'mizzenmast' is stepped, as you say, aft of the main. But the word comes from the ... 'middle'. Which of the possible forces of the Italian for 'middle' was involved? What was going on? Mike" OED conjectures they may have been some earlier meaning - perhaps 'middle-sized'. That would then designate a mast that wasn't the tallest and not the shortest. And such a mast might be found either side of the main mast. John Dean Oxford John Dean

	Charles Riggs    964372 Thu, 22 Jul 04 07:29 AM "Then the dictionary should preface such definitions with the warning ... already, but we wanted to make sure. Don't read on'." "How about "This definition is not intended for you unless you either know the meanings of the words it contains ... Someone who doesn't will either be satisfied by learning that it includes "something called ribosomes" or they'll look "ribosome" up." I concede your point, insofar as it applies to the practical world. In a perfect world, I still maintain that each definition would be self-contained, using that set of words an educated, unspecializing person understands. You'll admit, I think, it is possible. Charles Riggs Charles Riggs

	Athel Cornish-Bowden    964431 Thu, 22 Jul 04 09:57 AM "If you make no distinction between jargon and technical language, ... the ideas to the people to whom they are directed." "Have you tried looking "jargon" up in a dictionary? There are senses that have no pejorative implication at all." Of course. I had already done so before making the comment that you quote. The New Shorter OED gives seven definitions for "jargon", of which numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 7 are clearly pejorative, and can be summarized in No. 2: "unintelligible or meaningless talk or writing, nonsense, gibberish". Only at No. 6, way down the list, does it give any support to your contention. It seems to me that six out of seven on the side of pejorative constitute a substantial majority. So if you want to use the word in the non-pejorative sense you need to do so in a context where you cannot be misunderstood. Your original remark was not made in such a context. Would you alway call it jargon if someone uses a specialized word with a single specialized meaning in order to refer to the particular thing that the word refers to? Would you call the word "rhododendron" jargon, as it refers to only one thing (or to one restricted set of things, if you're a botanist), and occurs only in restricted contexts, and cannot be replaced by any other single word? If you want to talk about microsomes you have to call them "microsomes". Or maybe you're saying that it's impossible to talk about cell biology without using jargon? athel Athel Cornish-Bowden http://bip.cnrs-mrs.fr/bip10/homepage.htm Athel Cornish-Bowden Whom, Context, Writing, Numbers

	Mike Lyle    964467 Thu, 22 Jul 04 12:14 PM "A naval-architectural puzzle: A 'mizzenmast' is stepped, as you say, ... 'middle' was involved? What was going on? Mike" "OED conjectures they may have been some earlier meaning - perhaps 'middle-sized'. That would then designate a mast that wasn't the tallest and not the shortest. And such a mast might be found either side of the main mast." Stupid of me not to have looked in OED: it not so much solves my problem as destroys it (in the form in which I'd imagined it). It suggests the present French usage may not have been original, saying that English and Italian agree. The 'middle-size' conjecture, though, isn't OED's own, and in any case refers to the sail, not the mast; I don't think it can work for the mast, anyhow, since it's been around since ships had two masts, hasn't it? Mike. Mike Lyle Usages