[title]Family quotes[/title] [description]Welcome to our family quotes section! Here you'll find some of the funniest (and wisest) quotes on the subject of family life![/description]
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Latest post Fri, Jul 23 2004 7:26 PM by Usenet. 46 replies.
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Charles Riggs    960696 Sat, 17 Jul 04 09:28 AM

'microsome
· n. Biology a fragment of endoplasmic reticulum and attached ribosomes obtained by centrifugation of homogenized cells. – DERIVATIVES microsomal adj.'
I'm sure glad the COD cleared that up for me.

Charles Riggs
Evan Kirshenbaum    961240 Sat, 17 Jul 04 07:13 PM

"'microsome · n. Biology a fragment of endoplasmic reticulum and attached ribosomes obtained by centrifugation of homogenized cells. – DERIVATIVES microsomal adj.' I'm sure glad the COD cleared that up for me."

Is there any way they could have defined it that would have been any clearer without inserting a cellular biology text? MWCD11 defines that sense as
a particle in a particulate fraction that is obtained by heavy centrifugation of broken cells and consists of various amounts of ribosomes, fragmented endoplasmic reticulum, and mitochondrial cristae
If you know enough biology that any short definition will leave you any the wiser, I suspect that either of these will do the job, with perhaps one more look-up of one or two of the terms used. If not, more than a dictionary definition is needed.

Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >"It makes you wonder if there is
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 >anything to astrology after all."Palo Alto, CA 94304 >

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Michael Nitabach    961285 Sat, 17 Jul 04 09:51 PM

"'microsome · n. Biology a fragment of endoplasmic reticulum and attached ribosomes obtained by centrifugation of homogenized cells. – DERIVATIVES microsomal adj.' I'm sure glad the COD cleared that up for me."

It's heavy-duty jargon that can only be defined in terms of additional jargon, given the constraint of a one-sentence definition. If you truly are interested in learning a bit about modern biology, the following Web site is a good start:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/About/primer
If you have questions going forward, feel free to post them.

Mike Nitabach
Charles Riggs    961969 Sun, 18 Jul 04 07:36 AM

"'microsome · n. Biology a fragment of endoplasmic reticulum and ... I'm sure glad the COD cleared that up for me."

"It's heavy-duty jargon that can only be defined in terms of additional jargon, given the constraint of a one-sentence definition."

Why would the folks at OUP feel thus constrained? They'll go on and on, oftentimes, about a word common in every household, why not tell us all about a word that is not?
"If you truly are interested in learning a bit about modern biology, the following Web site is a good start: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/About/primer If you have questions going forward, feel free to post them."

My concern related more to descriptive language I found lacking in understandability than to biology, but thank you for the link.

A good teacher can make even the most complicated of subjects understandable, if not simple. If Special Relativity can be made simple for a college student, I'd think a definition of microsome, whoop-de-do, could be made understandable to a third grader even. The average dictionary isn't where a specialist goes to find out about a term he probably already knows well, it is for the householder.

Charles Riggs
Mike Lyle    962063 Sun, 18 Jul 04 01:57 PM

"It's heavy-duty jargon that can only be defined in terms of additional jargon, given the constraint of a one-sentence definition."

"Why would the folks at OUP feel thus constrained? They'll go on and on, oftentimes, about a word common in ... where a specialist goes to find out about a term he probably already knows well, it is for the householder."

I'm not at all sure it's always true that a term for a complex thing can be explained in a way laymen could understand without missing the point. Perhaps the key question is "Does a layman in this instance need to know the point?"
I had a look under microsome in COD9, and found "a small particle of organelle fragments obtained by centrifugation of homogenized cells", which seemed a lot clearer to me, after I'd checked that I really did know the meaning of 'organelle'. But did the editors change it for COD11 because somebody had found that the COD9 version was misleading? I'd probably have been satisfied with some such definition as " Biol. a small artificially-extracted particle of the material of which cells are made", though even I can see, having read the other definitions, that I've missed out a lot of information which may be significant even though I'm not sure what its significance actually is.

And, not being a biologist, I may be unaware of something else which isn't a microsome but which could equally well be described by my simple definition. In that case, perhaps the dictionary would be under an obligation not to let me take away the impression that the two were identical. Would some device such as simply putting "A kind of" in front of the baby definition be good enough? For me, most of the time, it would.
But when you say "The average dictionary isn't where a specialist goes to find out about a term he probably already knows well, it is for the householder" I think you're raising an important question. The COD11 definition is by that measure a bad one, because it doesn't seem to help. (I have previously warned aue that I have a hobby-horse about concise dictionaries getting too cumbersome.)
As it happens, I find both editions' use of 'homogenized' unhelpful.

Mike.
Jonathan Miller    962083 Sun, 18 Jul 04 05:27 PM

"It's heavy-duty jargon that can only be defined in terms of additional jargon, given the constraint of a one-sentence definition."

"Why would the folks at OUP feel thus constrained? They'll go on and on, oftentimes, about a word common in every household, why not tell us all about a word that is not?"

Not necessarily to defend OUP, but the reason for going on and on about common words is that they have multiple definitions. The reason for stopping short on microsome is that is has only one. Whether they go on and on too much (especially on the quotations) is a separate question, but you may be conflating the OED and the COD on this one. Or I may be putting words in your mouth.
"If you truly are interested in learning a bit about ... you have questions going forward, feel free to post them."

"My concern related more to descriptive language I found lacking in understandability than to biology, but thank you for the ... for a college student, I'd think a definition of microsome, whoop-de-do, could be made understandable to a third grader even."

Actually, I don't see that that follows at all. Maybe you know something about human development that I don't?
There are lots of definitions that don't really make sense if you don't know lots of other things in the definition. Maybe that's part of the definition of jargon, in which case maybe microsome is jargon. ("Raw bits.")
"The average dictionary isn't where a specialist goes to find out about a term he probably already knows well, it is for the householder."
And dictionary makers (like all writers) have to decide on their audience. The twin ideas for an unabridged dictionary are first that, even if it takes some time, everything can be puzzled through by following through to simpler definitions, and that it's complete. I don't see how the first idea can be abandoned, so the second is the one that must be compromised for the concise version. Maybe to OUP it just means leaving out the examples, but I'm sometimes willing to settle for the general idea.

(Unfortunately for publishers of dictionaries, at times like that I almost never need to consult a dictiionary in fact, I can't recall the last time I needed to know the general sense of something and looked it up in the dictionary: I cannot possibly have been more that eight and then I would only have done it because I was required by some martinet at school.)

Jon Miller
Michael Nitabach    962295 Sun, 18 Jul 04 10:06 PM

It's hard to imagine thinking that "microsome" could be considered anything other than jargon. The utility of jargon is that it allows people within a common technical community to concisely convey very complicated ideas.

Mike Nitabach
Charles Riggs    962677 Mon, 19 Jul 04 06:16 AM

"But when you say "The average dictionary isn't where a specialist goes to find out about a term he probably ... have a hobby-horse about concise dictionaries getting too cumbersome.) As it happens, I find both editions' use of 'homogenized' unhelpful."

How, in your experience, does edition 11 compare with edition 10? I have 9 and 10 on CD, but only edition 10 installed nowadays. The main reason I prefer to use COD10 is that it responds to a mere click on a word; I haven't seen much difference in the definitions it offers, although I admit I haven't made a study of it.

Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs    962678 Mon, 19 Jul 04 06:16 AM

"Not necessarily to defend OUP, but the reason for going on and on about common words is that they have multiple definitions. The reason for stopping short on microsome is that is has only one."

Then it shouldn't take much space in their book to tell us, in plain English, what one is!
"Whether they go on and on too much (especially on the quotations) is a separate question, but you may be conflating the OED and the COD on this one. Or I may be putting words in your mouth."

Here's what the COD10 has on 'functional', for example, a word few of us would have to look up in the first place:
· adj.

1 of, relating to, or having a function: a functional role. =>relatingto the way in which something functions: there are functional differences between the left and right brain.

2 designed to be practical and useful, rather than attractive.
3 working or operating.
4 (of a disease) affecting the operation rather than the structure ofan organ.

5 (of a mental illness) having no discernible organic cause.DERIVATIVES functionality n. functionally adv.

Charles Riggs
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