Middle voice

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Anonymous  #185088  Wed, 18 Jan 06 01:17 AM

"These clothes wash well."

"VW Polos sell quickly."

Would you say that those are examples of the middle voice?

  
milky  #185213  Wed, 18 Jan 06 09:31 AM
 Anonymous wrote:

"These clothes wash well."

"VW Polos sell quickly."

Would you say that those are examples of the middle voice?

They are indeed example of the middle construction or medio-passive. Are you studying that voice or something. It's not easy to grasp, is it?

  
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Anonymous  #189533  Fri, 27 Jan 06 05:16 PM

yes. but not because the clothes in this sentence are simutaneously the subject and objet of the verb wash. only because the phenomenon of getting washed well can be said to apply to them independently of who or what the agent may be. this use was a key function of the 'pregrammatical' middle voice in all Indo European languages. to know why the first greek grammarians insisted on administering the this voice so that it functioned reflexiely or reciprocally, you need to study aristotelean cinematics. the philosopher's solemn and unambiguous pronouncment on this matter decicively influenced the way the grammarians believed the voices of the verb should function.

Fionn C. Bennett <removed mod>

  
milky  #190363  Sun, 29 Jan 06 02:53 PM
 Anonymous wrote:

yes. but not because the clothes in this sentence are simutaneously the subject and objet of the verb wash. only because the phenomenon of getting washed well can be said to apply to them independently of who or what the agent may be. Fionn C. Bennett <removed mod>

So the clothes are attributed with a certain independent property?

  
Anonymous  #192313  Fri, 03 Feb 06 05:40 PM

A logical enough question. But that's the problem, it's too logical. Or, rather, the logic immanent in the question is inappropriate for understanding why many languages are equipped with a 'vestigal' middle voice. One can see  what I mean if we consider what is meant by 'property'. In the guise of the term 'attribute', this is normally opposed to substance or substrate. The chap who introduced this distinction, Aristotle, wanted activities like washing to belong to the attribute side of the opposition. He specifically did not want the substrate to move. This was a revolution in ideas on physics (that lead to a  revolution in ideas on the functions of the verb) for, formerly, the substrate was believed to move and this movement was believed to be the cause of some of the characteristics of the things possessing self-moving substrates. So when Aristotle banished self moving substrates from (his) physics, anything affecting the substrate had to be explained (actively or passively) relative to things outside it. This revolution in ideas on physics lead to a revolution in ideas on the function of the verbal voice. The  grammarians believed that the verbal voice should express activity or passivity or, in the case of clearly intransitive verbs, pronomial reflexivity. They must never express a self-affectedness attibutable to its substrate, which is precisely what the pre-grammatical middle existed to express

The importance of saying this isn't to claim that by anyone's logic it is the substrate of the jeans which acts on them in such a way that they get cleaned easily. It's only to say that verbs expressing agentless self-affectness are relics of a linguistic heritage that accepted this as normal lost in an (re)organisation of language that doesn't accept that this kind of think can happen.

  
Forbes  #193210  Mon, 06 Feb 06 02:01 PM
What does "pre-grammatical" mean please?
  
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milky  #193352  Mon, 06 Feb 06 07:00 PM
Thanks, Anon. Fascinating stuff.
  
Anonymous  #195068  Fri, 10 Feb 06 01:40 PM

As concerns the middle voice, it's simply all the uses of voice in which the subject of the verb was considered the passion of an agentivity intrinsic to itself that one could not identify. It is therefore quite distinct from and not reducible to "normal" reflexive and reciprocal forms and was not considered "defective" because it resisted analysis in these terms. Verbs and inflections expressing spontaneous emotions and thoughts fall into this category. So too do spontaneous, apparently agentless events occuring in nature.

Pre-grammatical also has a more general significance. It refers to the state of language prior to its administration by the Grammarians in ancient Alexandria. Obviously there's a lot to say about what state it was in prior to its subornation by the grammarians, but I'll abstain on that matter.

Might I ask who "Forbes" is? Why is he/she interested in something as recondite as the middle voice? 

  
Forbes  #196116  Sun, 12 Feb 06 10:20 PM
 Anonymous wrote:

Might I ask who "Forbes" is? Why is he/she interested in something as recondite as the middle voice? 

Just for the record I did not raise the question about the middle voice, but was puzzled by the word "pre-grammatical" which suggests that there was a time when language had no grammar, which would be something of a contradiction in terms. Thank you for the explanation. Would "pre-grammarian" not be a better term as grammar certainly existed before grammarians?

 I am a he.

What do you want to know about me?

  
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