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milky  #267192  Thu, 14 Sep 06 11:33 PM

<In this case we Americans with our preference for have to in deontic context are stuck. >

So, in AE, the following would not be a true statement, right?

"Have to, on the other hand, does not have a strong deontic role."

http://www3.telus.net/linguisticsissues/modalsinteaching.html

  
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CalifJim  #267199  Fri, 15 Sep 06 12:01 AM
Have to, on the other hand, does not have a strong deontic role.


On the bare surface of it I take it as totally crazy (in AmE)!

And yet,
Deontically, must obliges the subject of the sentence to do something (you must be home before 9 o’clock). Have to, on the other hand, does not have a strong deontic role.

There are some strange nuances here, to my way of thinking.
The author seems almost to define deontic in terms of imposing an obligation, not merely acknowledging the existence of an obligation.  His remark

Have to
, on the other hand, does not have a strong deontic role.

then seems to me to mean Have to is "not so deontic" as must because it merely acknowledges the existence of an obligation.  It does not actually impose the obligation.*

In the sense of imposing an obligation or in the sense of acknowledging the existence of an obligation,  certainly Americans often say things like You have to be home before 9 o'clock

The author continues with
In dialects where must is rarely used deontically (such as many American dialects) the form for obliging someone to do something is often the imperative.


As suggested by the quote above, it is true that, in that author's terms, the imperative Be home before 9 o'clock is "more deontic".  But personally I like the idea of restricting the terms deontic and epistemic to the descriptions of uses of the modal verbs.  I don't care for dragging in those same terms for imperatives, declaratives, conditionals, and what-have-you.

CJ

*In fact, I think this is the difference you are trying to highlight throughout this thread, just in different terminology.
  
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MrPedantic  #267202  Fri, 15 Sep 06 12:06 AM
 Milky wrote:

<In which case (just to clarify), in your view, no BrE speaker could use the following sentences in a subjective sense: >

I wouldn't say that no BrEng speaker could ever do that. Grammaticalization, in the form of AmEng usage, is rapidly taking hold of some parts BrEng usage.



We'll come back to grammaticalization. First, let's look again at the Thompson-Palmer hypothesis:


Exhibit A: "…Deontically, must obliges the subject of the sentence to do something (you must be home before 9 o’clock). …"

Exhibit B: "…When an obligation is clearly speaker-oriented, must is a clear choice…"
 


Which together imply, as we've already agreed, that "must" (in Thompson-Palmer's view) reflects an obligation imposed by the speaker on the subject.

Thompson-Palmer also says:


Exhibit C: "…When an obligation is clearly external, the choice is have to…"


Now a few posts ago, you presented this example of a "bouletic modal":

1. I am your father and I say you have to go to bed in 5 minutes.

Suppose we were to turn this into an examination question, and ask a BrE-studying ESL student to decide whether to use "must" or "have to":

2. I am your father and I say you ________ go to bed in 5 minutes.

Let A + B + C (above) = the Thompson-Palmer Modal Filter.

Our student applies A and B.

Clearly, the subject ("you") of the modal clause is obliged to go to bed. Moreover, the obligation is just as clearly "speaker-oriented": the father specifies both his own authority ("I am your father") and the fact that it is he ("I say") who is imposing the obligation and no one else. In which case, "must is a clear choice". Done and dusted.

As a formality, our student then applies C. Bewilderment ensues. Isn't the obligation "external" to the subject? Of course it is: it originates with the father.

But no, C can't mean that: if it did, we would have to change "must" to "have to" in every sentence of this kind:

3. You must give up devising examples of modal sentences.

since the obligation is almost always external to the 2nd person subject. Which would be absurd.

So C must mean that "have to" reflects an obligation external to both subject and speaker,  i.e. one that is imposed by a third party and merely reported by the speaker. Thus C does not apply in this case. We can stick with "must".

But our student is a cautious fellow. He decides to look up "bouletic". By chance, he lights upon http://mit.edu/fintel/www/modality.pdf, which helpfully informs him that "bouletic modality…concerns what is possible or necessary, given a person's desires."

"Given a person's desires": that certainly tallies with A and B.

But then, to his horror, he discovers the following sentence on the same page:

4. You have to go to bed in ten minutes. [stern father; bouletic]

You have to go to bed? But isn't that C? An obligation that is "clearly external"? So who is doing the imposing? The father is "stern", after all; and what about those "desires"? But the answer can't be "either", surely?

Feverishly our student considers the possible explanations:

i) The father may appear "stern"; but in fact, he's the abject puppet of his wife, who has scripted and rehearsed the entire incident to the very last detail.

ii) The father in #1 is in some sense reporting on the obligation he has imposed, and thus somehow presenting himself as a third party; in which case, since the obligation is pseudo-external, "the choice is have to". (But then, what about #4?)

iii) Thompson and Palmer are wrong: it isn't true that "must" is always "speaker-oriented", and "have to" is "clearly external".

iv) The "have to"/"must" distinction doesn't apply to sentences like #1 and #4, for some reason.

v) The author of #1 and #4 is American. They do things differently there. A BrE-speaker would never under any circumstances utter such grisly concoctions.

vi) He has misunderstood something, somewhere.

vii) His professor has misunderstood something, somewhere.

What do we say to our student, Milky?

MrP
  
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milky  #267226  Fri, 15 Sep 06 01:14 AM

 CalifJim wrote:


As suggested by the quote above, it is true that, in that author's terms, the imperative Be home before 9 o'clock is "more deontic".  But personally I like the idea of restricting the terms deontic and epistemic to the descriptions of uses of the modal verbs.  I don't care for dragging in those same terms for imperatives, declaratives, conditionals, and what-have-you.


I understand, but like it or not, deontic use of language concerns duties and obligations in all areas of modality and not just in the area of modal verbs..

  
milky  #267229  Fri, 15 Sep 06 01:16 AM

<Have to is "not so deontic" as must because it merely acknowledges the existence of an obligation.  It does not actually impose the obligation.*>

I would agree.

  
milky  #267232  Fri, 15 Sep 06 01:30 AM

<Clearly, the subject ("you") of the modal clause is obliged to go to bed. Moreover, the obligation is just as clearly "speaker-oriented": the father specifies both his own authority ("I am your father") and the fact that it is he ("I say") who is imposing the obligation and no one else. In which case, "must is a clear choice". Done and dusted.>

Not so done and dusted as one might wish.

Father: I am your father and I say (declare) that you have to go to bed.

Kid: But why do I have to?

Answer the kid's question, Mr P.

.................

<So C must mean that "have to" reflects an obligation external to both subject and speaker,  i.e. one that is imposed by a third party and merely reported by the speaker.>

You've got it right there.

<You have to go to bed? But isn't that C? An obligation that is "clearly external"? So who is doing the imposing? The father is "stern", after all; and what about those "desires"? But the answer can't be "either", surely?>

What is it to be a father? With my kids, I sometimes play the social role (external) that is expected of me and other times I am personal (internal), I am ME. As me, I am still "a father".

NB. The deontic use of must can be paraphrased so:

‘the direct force of Ys authority compels X to do something’

I think the word "direct" there is pertinent to this discussion.

  
milky  #267248  Fri, 15 Sep 06 02:47 AM

Hey, folks...which would you choose to say and why?

  1. I must hurry if I am to finish these few, final lines.
  2. I have to hurry if I am to finish these few, final lines.
  3. I'm sure nobody is reading this thread anymore, but I must correct myself if I am to sleep at all tonight!
  4. I'm sure nobody is reading this thread anymore, but I have to correct myself if I am to sleep at all tonight.
  5. I have to decide if I am to move here, and the thought of change has made me jittery.
  6. I must decide if I am to move here, and the thought of change has made me jittery.
  7. There are still two more big ingredients left that I have to mention if I am to catch the full flavour of the 1950's BOP.
  8. There are still two more big ingredients left that I must mention if I am to catch the full flavour of the 1950's BOP.
  9.  I have to understand how people learn if I am to be a facilitator of learning.
  10.  I must understand how people learn if I am to be a facilitator of learning.
  11. Now, I must decide if I am to sign my life up to the state by June.
  12. Now, I have to decide if I am to sign my life up to the state by June.

Thanks.

  
CalifJim  #267303  Fri, 15 Sep 06 07:49 AM
which would you choose to say and why


None of them, because of the presence of the idiom am to.
I would say am going to or am supposed to or reword it in another way.

If that part is altered, I would say only the ones with have to, none with must.

It's not at all inaccurate or far-fectched for me to say that everyone I know here in California and at various other places in the U.S. would make the same choices.  Almost all are university educated, middle class people who live in urban settings.  Ages range from 20's to 90's.

CJ

  
milky  #267307  Fri, 15 Sep 06 08:00 AM

Thanks, Jim. Is "am to" (be to) not used in the US then? For me, there is a difference between "am to" and "am going to" there. "Am to" has the feeling of obligation, but "am going to", does not. There, "am going to" is prediction based on present evidence.

You say that you and most Californians would use "have to" there. Would the "obligation" or necessity be external to you, the speaker, in such sentences?

  
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