Modal verbs

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CalifJim

#267316 Fri, 15 Sep 06 08:24 AM

Is "am to" (be to) not used in the US then?

It's used, but it's more often found in the written form than in the spoken form.

For me, there is a difference between "am to" and "am going to" there.

Right. Sometimes we do substitute going to, though.

"Am to" has the feeling of obligation,

So does must. So does have to. So does supposed to.
I must X if I am to ... = something like I have to X + something like if I have to ... = (approx.) I have to if I have to ... Smile [:)]

So the substitution of going to is really no less logical than that!

In reality, I think the obligation aspect of am to / am going to is somewhat neutralized in I must X if I am (going) to Y.

We also sometimes say in such a case

I (am going to) have to X if I have any hope of X-ing ...

I have to hurry if I have any hope of catching the 5 o'clock train.
I have to hurry if I'm going to catch the 5 o'clock train.

These last examples show even more clearly the neutralization of the obligation component in the if clause.

CJ

CalifJim

Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004

California

Veteran Member (17,791)

"There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche

Modals, Difference Between, Clauses

milky

#267328 Fri, 15 Sep 06 09:10 AM

<So does must. So does have to. So does supposed to.
I must X if I am to ... = something like I have to X + something like if I have to ... = (approx.) I have to if I have to ... Smile <img src= " src="/emoticons/emotion-1.gif">
So the substitution of going to is really no less logical than that!>

Yes, but in those sentences two incidents of obligation are mentioned in each.

I must do X if I am to do Y.

I have to do X if I am to do Y.

I'm supposed to do X if I am to do Y.

I must do X if I am going to do Y. (If Y is going to happen, I must do X) To me, there is no obligation with "going to" there.

<I (am going to) have to X if I have any hope of X-ing ...>

Again, for me the obligation comes from "have to" there and not "be going to". "Am going to" is prediction or deduction based on present evidence there.

milky

Joined on Thu, Jan 15 2004

Senior Member (3,149)

Hume said that if we had perfect or complete descriptive knowledge of reality, we could not, by reasoning, derive a single valid "ought".

Modals

milky

#267377 Fri, 15 Sep 06 11:31 AM

Clarifying.

For me, in doentic use, it goes like this.

You have to be home by nine (according to your father). (Action reporting/external)

(I say) You must be home by nine. (Action initiating/internal.)

I must be home by nine. (Action initiating/internal)

I have to be home by nine. (Action reporting/external.)

milky

Modals

CalifJim

#267627 Fri, 15 Sep 06 07:56 PM

I must do X if I am going to do Y. (If Y is going to happen, I must do X) To me, there is no obligation with "going to" there.

I must understand how people learn if I am to be a facilitator of learning.

To me there is no obligation with "am to" there. It's purely an expression of intent. Intent implies planned future action, hence, "going to".

To my ear, the quoted sentence is equivalent to these.

If my intent is to become (someday) a facilitator of learning, I must understand how people learn.
If I am (someday) going to be a facilitator of learning, I have to understand how people learn.

Not.

If I [must be / have to be / am obliged to be] a facilitator of learning, I must understand how people learn.

be to has more than just the 'obligation' meaning. The whole point of the formula is to say what must be done for some future goal to be accomplished, some future plan to be realized, not to say what must be done if some obligation is imposed.

CJ

CalifJim

Modals, Expressions

milky

#267663 Fri, 15 Sep 06 10:07 PM

Deleted. Not relevant.

milky

Modals

MrPedantic

#267863 Sat, 16 Sep 06 11:25 AM

Milky wrote:
Clarifying.

For me, in doentic use, it goes like this.

(I say) You must be home by nine. (Action initiating/internal.)

Hello Milky

How does this differ from the following, in your view:

1. (I say) You have to be home by nine.

MrP

MrPedantic

Joined on Tue, Oct 12 2004

Veteran Member (12,168)

...opella forensis / adducit febris...

Modals

milky

#267869 Sat, 16 Sep 06 11:43 AM

There, "I say" would/should mean "I report the fact that". IMO and use. "Social norms (external) for a person your age state that you be home by nine."

milky

Modals

MrPedantic

#267871 Sat, 16 Sep 06 11:47 AM

Milky wrote:
There, "I say" would/should mean "I report the fact that". IMO and use.

And what does "(I say) You must be home by nine" report?

MrP

MrPedantic

Modals

milky

#267872 Sat, 16 Sep 06 11:55 AM

"Social norms (external) for a person your age state that you be home by nine."

Nothing. It's the parent imposing his/her own (internal) authority.

Edit:

Just received this on another forum:

"There's a sort of "don't kill the messenger" when "have to" is used: Johnny has to go to bed at 9.00 because we've noticed that he's sleepy the next morning so although we are the authority in this matter we are presenting the facts as if we weren't. It's not some arbitrary whim of ours, unlike:

"All 3rd formers must in future use the side gate. The Principal"

Same type of authority figure but this time the writer can't get out of being the originator. There is no appeal to common sense or practice."

I'd agree with it.

milky

Modals

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