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Modal verbs

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Cool Breeze  #264987  Sun, 10 Sep 06 03:41 PM
I won't deal with the internal or external aspects of must and have to which some native speakers see and others don't. I would like to point out a difference on which, hopefully, all agree. When referring to the past, there is a distinct difference in usage.

He has had to buy a new coat.
- expresses obligation

He must have bought a new coat.
- does not express obligation but inference

Must + a perfect infinitive never expresses obligation.

Cheers
CB
  
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Schetin  #265001  Sun, 10 Sep 06 04:01 PM
Cheers, Cool Breeze.
  
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Marius Hancu  #265009  Sun, 10 Sep 06 04:09 PM
 Cool Breeze wrote:


He has had to buy a new coat.
- expresses obligation It could be a need, not an obligation.

He must have bought a new coat.
- does not express obligation but inference Yes, thinking that something had taken place with a certain probability.

Must + a perfect infinitive never expresses obligation.
  
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MrPedantic  #265044  Sun, 10 Sep 06 05:27 PM
 Milky wrote:

<If "must" is strictly "subjective", and "have to" is strictly objective, how is it possible to use the latter as the past form, etc. of the former?>

Because there, one is talking about something that happened (or didn't). A fact (objective). One does not need to talk subjectively about the past.



Okay, we'll take it out of the past.

_________________

He (to himself): "I must buy that new single by MissP."

Later:

She: "Are you going to buy MissP's new single?"
He: "Oh yes, thank you for reminding me. I knew there was something I had to do."

_________________

Or:

He (to himself): "I must buy that new single by MissP."

Later:

He: "Damn. There's something I have to do. But I can't remember what it is."
She: "Weren't you going to buy MissP's new single?"
He: "Oh yes, of course..."

_________________

The necessity is subjective in both utterances, and is the same necessity: nothing has changed. Yet he can happily use "must" the first time, and "have to" the second.

MrP
  
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LanguageAngel  #265077  Sun, 10 Sep 06 06:37 PM

To my beliefs, "must" is a lot like "have to" in a way that they both mean one is required to do something. However, "must" has a more sense of urgency to it.

e.g. "I have to do my homework." opposed to "I must do my homework." The difference is there, though one may regard it as vague.

  
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MrPedantic  #265105  Sun, 10 Sep 06 07:41 PM
 Milky wrote:

For me, they have different uses. "Have to" is objective necessity or obligation and "must" is subjective.



For interest, cf. (Post:194537):
 Milky wrote:

"Have to" is normally used for subjective obligation or necessity, e.g. when a person feels he/she is obliged to do something or something is necessary, and "must" (in one use) is used for expressing objective obligation or necessity. that is, when the obligation or necessity is placed upon us by another person. However, it seems that a few American English speakers do not distinguish between those uses.



(Not that there's anything wrong with changing your position.)

For my part, I can see that deontic "must" often (mostly?) reflects an obligation the speaker has imposed on the subject; and that "have to" might be used by a third party, when reporting that obligation.

But it seems to me that deontic "have to" can reflect both a subjective and an objective obligation. (Otherwise, of course, we could not use it as a substitute for "must" where "must" lacks a form.)

MrP
  
milky  #265145  Sun, 10 Sep 06 11:16 PM

<He (to himself): "I must buy that new single by MissP."

Later:

She: "Are you going to buy MissP's new single?"
He: "Oh yes, thank you for reminding me. I knew there was something I had to do.">

Still past. The plan was made before the moment of speaking.

  
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Hume said that if we had perfect or complete descriptive knowledge of reality, we could not, by reasoning, derive a single valid "ought".
MrPedantic  #265158  Mon, 11 Sep 06 12:49 AM
From Google:

1. ‘I have to buy that,’ I said to myself. ‘Oooh, Limited Edition Southwestern Salsa Pringles! It’s only 99 cents!’

2. I  remember seeing this in a book shop and thinking: ‘I must buy that book’, although I never got round to it.

What about here, Milky? What's the difference, in terms of objectivity/subjectivity?

MrP
  
CalifJim  #265257  Mon, 11 Sep 06 06:49 AM
I've been told  that must/have to are used interchangeably. However, my English text books say that the difference is some context considerable. What is your view on this?


I don't know of any context in which the difference might be described as considerable.  Perhaps you should post some examples.

My view on modals in American English is shown in Post:67841.

The basic uses are as follows:

1.  must is used to indicate an inevitable logical conclusion.

The lights are on.  He must be at home.
I can't find my pen.  I must have lost it on the way here.


2.  have to is used to show an obligation.

I have to take a final exam next Tuesday.
Mary had to go to the bank, but she'll be back in a few minutes.


If you use only the two described above in ordinary conversation, you will match American usage nearly 100% of the time.
______

3.  That said, on occasion, but not often, have to replaces must in the meaning described above (1.).  It gives the impression of being more casual in tone, while in some cases simultaneously insisting somewhat more strongly on correctness of the conclusion.  (Using must in the examples below is not wrong.)

Her ex-husband was going to the same party.  That has to be why she turned down our invitation.
This has to be the answer.  All the other choices are wrong.


4.  Also, on occasion, but more frequently than the substitution just described (3.), must substitutes for have to described above (2.).  It gives the impression of belonging to more official language - and/or of being more formal in tone.  Consequently, it is used more often in rules and instructions than in ordinary conversation.  (Using have to in the examples below is not wrong, but sounds less official.)

All employees must wash their hands before returning to the kitchen.
The application must be filled out and signed before September 1.

(As for analyzing what thought you wish to express in terms of subjectivity and objectivity, note that there is little agreement on what to call subjective and what to call objective.  Consequently, in my opinion, the net result of such analysis while in the act of trying to speak in a real conversation will almost certainly leave you tongue-tied, no matter how interesting the topic may be as arm-chair philosophy.)

CJ




  
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