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Anonymous, 137 days ago
< all native English speakers really ought to be able to speak to each other without too much difficulty.>

 

So there's this nonstandard English speaker and he comes along and meets this Standard English speaker who says:

 

SEspeaker: My car needs washing.

NSE speaker: You can take it to the carwash.

SEspeaker: OK, thanks for that information.

 

Then there's this Standard English speaker and he comes along and meets this nonstandard English speaker who says:

 

NSEspeaker: My car needs washed.

SE speaker: What? I do not understand you.

NSEspeaker: OK, thanks for that information.

 

The tale on most language forums: "I'm a Standard English speaker, or at least I want all to believe that. If you don't speak to me in Standard English I'll pretend I don't understand you and I'll frighten all language students into thinking they too would not be understood by most native speakers if they spoke as you".

 

 

C'mon, Forbes, tell it as it is.

Forbes  +  813272 Thu, 09 Jul 09 10:15 PM
Anonymous
“C'mon, Forbes, tell it as it is. ”
 

 

Right. I will.

 

I said: "All native English speakers really ought to be able to speak to each other without too much difficulty." What I meant was that most native speakers of English are to a great or less extent bidialectal, or at least bivarietal. It is be hoped that all native speakers of English receive some education and that education will involve them in learning some variety of Standard English. None of the varieties of Standard English differ from each other by very much at all. This means that, on the whole, native speakers of English can understand each other so long as, if they come from different parts of the world, each of them does not insist on speaking his "home" dialect.

 

But you seem to worry about students of English who are learning English as a second language. What are we going to teach them if we do not teach them Standard English? It seems to me entirely reasonable that if students of English from Tierra del Fuego meet students of English from Japan that when they meet  each group will expect the other group to speak the same language.

 

In case there is any misunderstanding here, I believe that all varieties of Englsih are equally valid. That does not mean, talking purely in terms of numbers, that they are all equally useful as a means of communication. If at school I had been taught, say, Aragonese, instead of Standard Spanish, on the grounds that it was as equally valid, I would have been highly annoyed when I got to Spain on my first visit and found that not only could they not understand me in Madrid, but that neither could the majority of the inhabitants of Aragon.

 

All we get is a constant stream of statements culled from here and there as to what EFL teachers should not be doing, coupled with assertions that they are pedalling some sort of artificial language. Nowhere is there any suggestion as to what EFL teachers ought to be doing or how they are supposed to come to decisions about what they should be doing. All the comments that contributors make are responded to with further questions and we get involved in endless Socratic debates that go nowhere.

 

Now, I can perfectly understand that there are many in the world who feel threatened by the onward advance of English. It seems as part of this that they feel the need to encourage the fragmentation of English. By all means let local varieties develop, but keeping learners away from Standard English as a matter of policy is nothing short of illiberal. I get very frustrated when language gets too caught up in culture, nationalism, religion or race. Language is above all a means of communication. It is good that as many people of the world as possible should be able to communicate with each other freely. It just happens that at this moment in the world's history English is one of the languages many want to learn. Let's make sure when they do that they can all speak to each other.

Joined on Thu, Jun 16 2005
Regular Member 895
Anonymous, 137 days ago
I agree with Forbes. It seems to me that the problem is not so much Standard English, which is, or should be, a democratic, common denominator for second language speakers (not to mention for native speakers who also speak other varieties of English), so much as the invertedly snobbish attitude of some native speakers towards Standard English. This is partly because some people lack confidence about writing English (which generally demands Standard English), and partly because some people mix up Standard English with Received Pronunication, which is not the same thing at all. 


Yes, it is a variety of English; I think it is not technically a dialect, since a dialect is a regional or sociolectic variation from the standard form. It is perhaps not as quirky or aesthetically pleasing or as exciting as some of the varieties spoken up and down the land and across the globe, or in some kinds of literature.  But it should be a useful starting point, a familiar armchair, a handshake.   Think of it, not as a sequined jumpsuit or a Batman cape, but as a comfortable pair of leather boots or a little black dress.  Good for lots of occasions, especially when you're not sure what others will be wearing.

MrPedantic  +  813281 Thu, 09 Jul 09 10:49 PM
Forbes
“What are we going to teach them if we do not teach them Standard English?”
 

 

Yes; and to some extent, standard English could be defined as the form of English non-natives learn.

 

Another consideration is consistency. If a native speaker uses non-standard phrase X, he is likely to use non-standard phrases Y and Z too, and to speak with one of several accents. In other words, his English will be consistent and unremarkable.

 

In a non-native speaker, on the other hand, the use of non-standard phrases and pronunciations is likely to be inconsistent. This may make his English sound "odd", or less competent than it is.

 

MrP

Joined on Tue, Oct 12 2004
Veteran Member 12,592
...opella forensis / adducit febris...
AlpheccaStars  +  813283 Thu, 09 Jul 09 10:53 PM
Anonymous

NSEspeaker: My car needs washed.

SE speaker: What? I do not understand you.

There was a posting recently exactly with this syntax. The people who commented never said that the NSE line would not be understood, only that it was characteristic of a regional dialect.


English can meander quite a distance on an infinite number of dimensions before it becomes incomprehensible.

When I was a little kid, I had an Uncle Remus story book. I could understand it, but I knew without being told that it was written in a special sort of language that was not spoken in my community, or in other school  books I was reading.  When we visited my grandparents in the deep south on summer vacations, I could make out strains of Uncle Remus's language in the speech of their community. The told me that I "spoke funny," but they had no trouble understanding me. Since then, I've encountered many regional dialects, and even have run across a couple that were incomprehensible to me.


Here are a few initial sentences from "The Tar Baby".


"Didn't the fox never catch the rabbit, Uncle Remus?" asked the little boy the next evening.


"He come mighty nigh it, honey, sho's you born--Brer Fox did. One day atter Brer Rabbit fool 'im wid dat calamus root, Brer Fox went ter wuk en got 'im some tar, en mix it wid some turkentime, en fix up a contrapshun w'at he call a Tar-Baby, en he tuck dish yer Tar-Baby en he sot 'er in de big road, en den he lay off in de bushes fer to see what de news wuz gwine ter be. En he didn't hatter wait long, nudder, kaze bimeby here come Brer Rabbit pacin' down de road--lippity-clippity, clippity -lippity--dez ez sassy ez a jay-bird. Brer Fox, he lay low. Brer Rabbit come prancin' 'long twel he spy de Tar-Baby, en den he fotch up on his behime legs like he wuz 'stonished. De Tar Baby, she sot dar, she did, en Brer Fox, he lay low.


"`Mawnin'!' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee - `nice wedder dis mawnin',' sezee.
"Tar-Baby ain't sayin' nuthin', en Brer Fox he lay low.
"`How duz yo' sym'tums seem ter segashuate?' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee.

Joined on Sun, Oct 12 2008
Senior Member 3,508
The pen is mightier than the sword. Edward Bulwer-Lytton (1803-1873)
Anonymous, 137 days ago
It seems to me entirely reasonable that if students of English from Tierra del Fuego meet students of English from Japan that when they meet  each group will expect the other group to speak the same language.

 

Many of such students are rejecting Standard English and opting for a watered down version of the English spoken by natives or they are creating their own variants.  And one of the main reasons for teaching Standard English is to enable native Standard English speakers to do business with the rest of the non-English speaking world, or to get labour out of the same people. Let's not ignore that globalising desire.

 

<All we get is a constant stream of statements culled from here and there as to what EFL teachers should not be doing, coupled with assertions that they are pedalling some sort of artificial language.>

 

That is the case in many English language academies. The main function of most TEFL classes is in teaching sentences.

 

<I get very frustrated when language gets too caught up in culture, nationalism, religion or race.>

 

You forgot to mention politics and economics. The teaching of Standard English, or should we say Standard British and American English, because that is what seems marketable at present,  is caught up in political ideology and economic interests.

 

<Language is above all a means of communication. >

 

At this moment in time, the English language is above all a means of earning more dollars, pounds, euros, yen, and now of course, yuan.

Anonymous, 137 days ago
< Yes; and to some extent, standard English could be defined as the form of English non-natives learn.>

 

Or TEFLese. 

Anonymous, 137 days ago
<The people who commented never said that the NSE line would not be understood, only that it was characteristic of a regional dialect.>

 

You need to look beyond this tiny forum.

 

<Since then, I've encountered many regional dialects, and even have run across a couple that were incomprehensible to me.>

So, if you, and it seems many, have no problem understanding most dialects, why do we need Standard English?

Anonymous, 137 days ago
<By all means let local varieties develop, but keeping learners away from Standard English as a matter of policy is nothing short of illiberal. >

 

I thought it was more of a case of the Standard English speaking world keeping ESL students away from alternative dialects?

 

And would you say that we should create a standard religion so we can all worship the same god and live in peace and harmony? After all, religion is above all just worship.

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