[title]Family quotes[/title] [description]Welcome to our family quotes section! Here you'll find some of the funniest (and wisest) quotes on the subject of family life![/description]
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Areff    948853 Wed, 30 Jun 04 07:52 AM

"I'm an American. My "ah" is the furthest back of my low back vowels that I discuss at http://alt-usage-english.org/A vowels.html . It's unmistakably a low back vowel."

Sure, but you're a CIC man. No one is denying that you have a back "ah" vowel. Indeed, that's what we CINCs have been saying all along: your "ah" sounds like "aw" to us. We CINCs use an "ah" vowel that is, in its preferred form, a low central vowel.
"I analyzed twelve vowels spoken by Richard Fontana a few years ago. Some of them had an amazing amount of ... glided to a central position. See the vowel chart at http://alt-usage-english.org/Fontana chart.gif and the formant plots at http://alt-usage-english.org/Fontana formants.gif ."

That's interesting, since it's how I'd describe the stereotypical Bostonian cot/caught vowel. "Hod" would sound like "hwau-odd". I don't think I talk like that. But if there is such a glide, perhaps it captures a vowel shift from low back to low central (disturbingly, that's part of the Northern Cities Shift).
I think the "hod" pronunciation I use on that recording is sort of artificial, though.
Bob Cunningham  , 5 yr 150 days ago

"But if there is such a glide,"

Waddayamean "if". Did Praat ever lie to you before?
Bob Cunningham    948875 Wed, 30 Jun 04 09:27 AM

"Indeed, that's what we CINCs have been saying all along: your "ah" sounds like "aw" to us."

If you say that to me, you say nothing. As a description of a sound, "aw" has no useful meaning.
Bob Cunningham    948888 Wed, 30 Jun 04 11:00 AM

I said in a recent posting
"The AUE contributor I've referred to is the same one who came up with the preposterous assertion that my great ... gets a good laugh. In fact, what the AC heard was the child's mother saying "She can do it, too"."

It's now time for me to eat a bit of crow. If I were RJV, I would blow huge clouds of smoke to try to conceal the fact that I had erred. I'm not RJV, so I will simply say that in making the statement I've quoted above I misremembered some details.
The preposterous assertion RJV made was not that he baby had said "I can do it, too". The preposterous implication he made was that the baby had spoken a different full sentence.

Let me also say that in the discussion I've referred to, I made a rather serious error in saying that a voice I heard was that of my daughter. I even expressed indignation that anyone would doubt my ability to recognize my daughter's voice. I was later embarrassed to be told that my daughter wasn't even present, and the statement that Valentine heard and attributed to someone on-screen was actually made by the baby's mother, off-screen. My daughter's voice and that of the baby's mother (one of my granddaughters) are evidently quite similar.
So now I've confessed, and I must say it sorta hurt to do so.
But the essential points are unchanged. Valentine imagined that he saw things in a movie clip that weren't there. He imagined that the baby spoke a complete sentence that she did not speak. He attempted to prove something about lip rounding based on imagining that a person on screen had said something she didn't say. He blew enormous clouds of smoke (See Message-ID: (Email Removed)) in a futile attempt to hide his silliness.
I apologize for readers for bringing up this topic again when I sorta promised I wouldn't. I'll try to not mention it again unless I'm forced to.
Let Valentine blow all the smoke he wants to; just remember that that stuff that's running out of his ears isn't wax.
Jens Brix Christiansen    948950 Wed, 30 Jun 04 12:05 PM

"I think Nathalie's peers in what they call kindergarten in Norway but I would call nursery school are mostly Norwegian speakers (she can point to each one and say his or her name)."

Hold on. No one in Norway calls anything "kindergarten", at least not when they are speaking Norwegian.
The Norwegian word is "barnehage", which is composed of "barn" (child) and "hage" (garden or yard). There is a similar German word "Kindergarten", which is composed of "Kind" (child), or "Kinder" (children), and "Garten" (garden). They both refer to places where pre-school children spend (part of) the day while their parents go to work, which in your part of the world would be a nursery school or day care center.
The German word has made its way into English, at least in the U.S., but it has acquired a slightly different meaning on the way.

The impression you have of the use of the word "kindergarten" is probably a misunderstanding originally made by a Norwegian speaker with knowledge of both English and German somewhat along these lines:

Let's see now, I need an English word for "barnehage". This would be "Kindergarten" in German, and I remember from this movie with Arnie that "kindergarten" is also used in the U.S., so that must be it!

Bottom line: Norwegians speaking English sometimes erroneously translate "barnehage" to "kindergarten".
Aaron J. Dinkin    948953 Wed, 30 Jun 04 12:23 PM

"Indeed, that's what we CINCs have been saying all along: your "ah" sounds like "aw" to us."

"If you say that to me, you say nothing. As a description of a sound, "aw" has no useful meaning."

It seems pretty clear to me that Richard means that your "ah" sounds like a vowel that, if he himself said it, he would prefer to spell as "aw" rather than as "ah". (It also seems pretty clear to me that when he says "we" and "us" in the quotes sentence, he means 'I' and 'me'.)

It's not true at all that he's saying nothing. He's not giving information of the kind you may want to be given (namely, phonetic description of a particular vowel in your speech), but he is giving nonzero information (namely, the way his own ear interprets a particular vowel in your speech).

-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Areff    948965 Wed, 30 Jun 04 12:37 PM

"But if there is such a glide,"

"Waddayamean "if". Did Praat ever lie to you before?"

Praat never lies, but fallible humans interpret Praat's true statements.

Areff    948968 Wed, 30 Jun 04 12:40 PM

"Indeed, that's what we CINCs have been saying all along: your "ah" sounds like "aw" to us."

"If you say that to me, you say nothing. As a description of a sound, "aw" has no useful meaning."

But I think it does have some useful meaning to the community of CINC AmE speakers. I think if you were CINC you'd understand. Everyone who's a CINC AmE knows there's an "ah" and there's an "aw", and that these concepts refer to a range of sounds, including certain ideal or preferred subsets.
Areff    948970 Wed, 30 Jun 04 12:40 PM

"Indeed, that's what we CINCs have been saying all along: your "ah" sounds like "aw" to us."

"If you say that to me, you say nothing. As a description of a sound, "aw" has no useful meaning."

But I think it does have some useful meaning to the community of CINC AmE speakers. I think if you were CINC you'd understand. Everyone who's a CINC AmE knows there's an "ah" and there's an "aw", and that these concepts refer to a range of sounds, including certain ideal or preferred subsets.
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