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Latest post Thu, Jul 1 2004 12:05 PM by Usenet. 52 replies.
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Bob Cunningham    947962 Tue, 29 Jun 04 02:06 PM

At the AUE site, there's a page headed "Pronunciation of newsgroup contributors' names". The URL is
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/audio gallery/index.html

When you click on "WAV" or "MP3" by my name, you hear me pronouncing my name, along with a couple of other brief remarks, one of which is "People call me Bob".
A certain AUE contributor has deluded himself into thinking there's a substantial difference between my vowels in "call" and "Bob" in that remark.
In particular, he imagines that my vowel in "call" can be described as the sound of "aw". If "the sound of 'aw'" has any useful meaning, it must refer to the pronunciation that's given to the spelling "aw" in dictionaries, which is the vowel (O), the open-mid back rounded vowel.
Formant analysis shows that my vowels in "call" and "Bob" in my "People call me Bob" are both low back vowels, and the vowel in "call" has no trace of rounding. The vowel in "Bob" is somewhat farther forward than the one in "call", but not enough to remove it from the low back area of the vowel quadrilateral.
The AUE contributor I've referred to is the same one who came up with the preposterous assertion that my great granddaughter at the age of about 10 months was saying the full sentence "I can do it, too"*. I've told family members about this silly assertion, and it gets a good laugh. In fact, what the AC heard was the child's mother saying "She can do it, too".
Nathalie is about 18 months old now and is beginning to say a few words. I haven't heard her talk, but I get the impression from her mother's accounts that a lot of what she says is Norwegian, especially when she's talking to her father, whose mother tongue is Norwegian, although he speaks English fluently.
I think Nathalie's peers in what they call kindergarten in Norway but I would call nursery school are mostly Norwegian speakers (she can point to each one and say his or her name). We wouldn't be surprised, when we see her again sometime next year, to hear her speaking English with a Norwegian accent.
* You can hear the sound in a 10-megabyte movie clip at http://www.exw6sxq.com/sparky/images/118 1843.AVI .
Areff    948014 Tue, 29 Jun 04 05:18 PM

"A certain AUE contributor has deluded himself into thinking there's a substantial difference between my vowels in "call" and "Bob" in that remark."

In general I agree; I think all of your cot/caught vowels sound like normative CINC AmE "aw".
"In particular, he imagines that my vowel in "call" can be described as the sound of "aw". If "the sound ... the pronunciation that's given to the spelling "aw" in dictionaries, which is the vowel (O), the open-mid back rounded vowel."

I think it means something more than that. It's the range of sounds you'd expect sufficiently-normatively-accented AmE CINC speakers to use in "aw" words. For many such speakers the vowel will be a low back vowel, perhaps with little or no rounding.
"Formant analysis shows that my vowels in "call" and "Bob" in my "People call me Bob" are both low back vowels, and the vowel in "call" has no trace of rounding."

Wouldn't there have to be *some* rounding at the very end, on account of the following (l)? In order to make an (l) you have to round your lips.
"The vowel in "Bob" is somewhat farther forward than the one in "call", but not enough to remove it from the low back area of the vowel quadrilateral."

I agree. That's why both your "Bob" and your "call" are "aw".

Jonathan Jordan    948037 Tue, 29 Jun 04 06:22 PM


"Formant analysis shows that my vowels in "call" and "Bob" ... and the vowel in "call" has no trace of rounding."

"Wouldn't there have to be *some* rounding at the very end, onaccount of the following (l)? In order to make an (l) you have to round yourlips."

Do you? I don't think I do.
To BC: how do you deduce from the formants that there's no trace of rounding?
Jonathan
Areff  , 5 yr 264 days ago

"lips. Do you? I don't think I do."

Okay, maybe not. It sounded good.
Aaron J. Dinkin    948150 Tue, 29 Jun 04 09:44 PM

"Formant analysis shows that my vowels in "call" and "Bob" in my "People call me Bob" are both low back vowels, and the vowel in "call" has no trace of rounding."

Straight question: Is that 'Formant analysis shows that {X, and Y}', or is it '{Formant analysis shows that X}, and Y'?
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Aaron J. Dinkin    948252 Tue, 29 Jun 04 10:01 PM

"Formant analysis shows that my vowels in "call" and "Bob" ... and the vowel in "call" has no trace of rounding."

"Wouldn't there have to be *some* rounding at the very end, on account of the following (l)? In order to make an (l) you have to round your lips."

Eh? Quite the contrary. In fact, I think the usual AmE /l/ after back vowels is actually something more along the lines of an unrounded version of (o). (I'm at work so I can't check Bob's file in particular at the moment to see if this is the case for him or he actually uses a consonantal (l).)

On the other hand, it's often said that (r) in English is frequently rounded.

-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Bob Cunningham    948300 Tue, 29 Jun 04 10:10 PM

"Formant analysis shows that my vowels in "call" and "Bob" ... and the vowel in "call" has no trace of rounding."

"Straight question: Is that 'Formant analysis shows that {X, and Y}', or is it '{Formant analysis shows that X}, and Y'?"

The second. I know my "call" has no trace of rounding because I can look at my lips in a mirror while I'm saying it. I can also feel my lips rounding when I pronounce a rounded vowel.
So far as I know, rounding has the same effect on formant positions as moving the vowel way back. I don't know how to isolate the two effects.
Bob Cunningham    948497 Tue, 29 Jun 04 10:58 PM

"Wouldn't there have to be *some* rounding at the very ... to make an (l) you have to round your lips."

I certainly don't.
"Eh? Quite the contrary. In fact, I think the usual AmE /l/ after back vowels is actually something more along the lines of an unrounded version of (o)."

I don't see or feel any connection between (l) and (o).
"(I'm at work so I can't check Bob's file in particular at the moment to see if this is the case for him or he actually uses a consonantal (l).)"

When I say "call", I produce the "l" by raising the tip of my tongue to touch the alveolar ridge and dropping it back. Also, the separation between my lips decreases slightly for the "l". But there's not the slightest bit of rounding.
"On the other hand, it's often said that (r) in English is frequently rounded."

I round my lips a fair amount for an initial "r", but when I say "car" there's no rounding for the "r".
Bob Cunningham    948506 Tue, 29 Jun 04 11:07 PM

[nq:1][/nq]
Restore pertinent discussion about the meaning of "aw":

If "the sound of 'aw'" has any useful meaning, it
must refer to the pronunciation that's given to
the spelling "aw" in dictionaries, which is the
vowel (O), the open-mid back rounded vowel.
"Wouldn't there have to be *some* rounding at the very ... to make an (l) you have to round your lips."

"Do you? I don't think I do. To BC: how do you deduce from the formants that there's no trace of rounding?"

You've probably seen by now my answer to Aaron Dinkin's question on the same point. Note that he was careful enough to recognize that there were two possible interpretations, while you allowed for only one.
Let me say in addition that if I had wanted to say what you mistakenly understood me to say, I would have omitted the comma after "back vowels". The comma makes what follows an independent clause.
I do admit, though, that I should have worded my statement differently.
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