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milky

#30090 Sun, 16 May 04 01:23 PM

Do you think the use of "now" is correct here:

Susan began to tremble, since now John had become very angry.

milky

Joined on Thu, Jan 15 2004

Senior Member (3,149)

Hume said that if we had perfect or complete descriptive knowledge of reality, we could not, by reasoning, derive a single valid "ought".

suzi

#30111 Sun, 16 May 04 06:46 PM

I wouldn't use it like that, the tense is so far back in the past that it sounds odd

try:
Susan began to tremble, since John had become very angry at that point.

suzi

Joined on Wed, Jan 7 2004

Full Member (465)

Tenses

milky

#30128 Mon, 17 May 04 12:33 AM

And these:

Once the child was born, the king's waistline shrunk even more, since now he had to figure out who would be on the invitation list to the baby's christening.
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Surely it was obvious to the driver that he was getting off, since now he had moved up the bus and was standing next to the door.
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With God's judgments, behind every cloud there is a silver lining. Man had to learn responsibility, since now he had to work for a living.
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milky

Invitations

suzi

#30145 Mon, 17 May 04 08:15 AM

gosh, you are demanding!

Please understand that these remarks are made in a discursive, not a didactic way!

It seems ok in the first one, and the third one, as it is being teamed with "since" .. which suggests a shift in the time frame

it seems ok in the second one because there is a sense of progressive movement; the writer is using present participles (getting off, standing next to)

suzi

milky

#30173 Mon, 17 May 04 12:29 PM

By nature I am often demanding, but I didn't read your first reply as didactic. Wink [;)]

"Susan began to tremble, since now John had become very angry."

What do you see as the difference between the later examples that are teamed with "since" and the example above, which is also teamed?

And would you say that "since" appears here in its conjunctive meaning and not as an adverb?

Discursively of course.

milky

Verbs, Difference Between, Adverbs

miriam

#30180 Mon, 17 May 04 03:12 PM

The original sentence about Susan and John makes sense to me. Perhaps it's because we use "now" in that sense in Spanish, also with a verb in the past perfect.
Actually, all four sentences posted sound right to me. Shall I go back to school? I don't want to be fired! Smile [:)]

Miriam

Edited to add this:
milky, "since" is a conjunction in those sentences, not an adverb.

miriam

Joined on Mon, May 10 2004

Argentina

Regular Member (821)

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." Plato

Verbs, Adverbs, Past Perfect

Guest

#30190 Mon, 17 May 04 04:19 PM

Thank God it is just "often".

Guest

suzi

#30234 Tue, 18 May 04 08:28 AM

;)

I guess it is more to do with semantics and style than a "grammar" rule... in all of your examples and obviously NOT just the issue of using "since" . If you are using "now" you need a sense of immediacy / action, maybe?

in the first it seems "wrong" to use "now" with a pluperfect verb - "had become" tha action is finished and very firmly in the past -

Surely it was obvious to the driver that he was getting off, since now he had moved up the bus and was standing next to the door.

which would appear to be the case in the bus - "he had moved" but it is NOT the same as the action continuee "was standing"

Once the child was born, the king's waistline shrunk even more, since now he had to figure out who would be on the invitation list to the baby's christening.

and this one is using "now" as a pivot to suggesting future action from this point too...

well, what do you think!

as for conjucnctive or adjective - that is SOOOOO not my sort of question!

suzi

Grammar, Verbs, Invitations

milky

#30275 Tue, 18 May 04 02:55 PM

... since now he had moved up the bus and was standing next to the door.

.... seeing that now he had moved up the bus and was standing next to the door .

The situation at the now of the present moment in the narrative (was obvious). Something had already been completed (had moved) at that time.

This is also where I noted "since" as a conjunction in this case meaning, because or seeing that.
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milky