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Skitt    743995 Sun, 16 Nov 03 05:18 AM

"Why the scare quotes? It is a refuge, isn't it? I don't think it improves anything."

"Isn't the intended thought that the place is a communal living situation for lesbians?"

Gosh, no! Not to me, anyway. Am I misunderstanding something?
"Don't the square quotes more clearly imply that?"

"Scare", not "square", but no, I would never have thought of that. I was thinking of battered women something more in the news than lesbians. Are there any homes for lesbians other than their own?

Gosh, I know several of them, but none of them are in refuges.
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
R J Valentine    744017 Sun, 16 Nov 03 06:19 AM

}
}> Saw this in the paper today:
}>
}> In (the book) "Paradise", a convent-turned-women's refuge is stormed by }> townsmen.
}>
}> The meaning is perfectly clear, but is there not a slight miscue here, }> to the effect that this was once a convent refuge? On the other hand, }> if the hyphens are dropped, a different miscue arises, as you might }> think initially that "convent" is to be the subject and "turned" the }> main verb. Is the writer is trying to tell us too much in too few words? }>
}> What do you think?
}
} I think you're right that the writer is trying to tell us too much in too } few words. However, if those are the words that the writer is intent on } using, the correct way to punctuate it would be to use a hyphen between } "convent" and "turned", and an en dash between "turned" and "women's } refuge". Also acceptable, I think, would be to have three hyphens in } "convent-turned-women's-refuge".
I can see I have my work cut out for me on hyperhyphenation (q.g.). First of all, an en-dash is *never* used in hyperhyphenation it's only used in things like date ranges, and it's simulated with a hyphen (or with a slash when it's used in hyperendashation, as in George Washington (1730/9-1790/9)).
Second of all, "convent turned women's refuge" doesn't need *any* hyphens as a noun phrase. It's a convent that has turned (or has been turned) into a women's refuge. If necessary to avoid confusion with surrounding words, the "turned women's refuge" can be parenthesized. It's only when using the whole thing as a compound modifier that hyphenation kicks in, and that is where the hyperhyphenation comes to the rescue. The gift shop, for instance, might sell convent-turned-women's=refuge T-shirts.

It's a shame these linguist schools don't teach this stuff. It's the minimum I'd expect from a good high school.

R. J. Valentine
Skitt    744032 Sun, 16 Nov 03 06:48 AM

"I can see I have my work cut out for me on hyperhyphenation (q.g.). First of all, an en-dash is ... and it's simulated with a hyphen (or with a slash when it's used in hyperendashation, as in George Washington (1730/9-1790/9))."

How true, how true.
"Second of all, "convent turned women's refuge" doesn't need *any* hyphens as a noun phrase. It's a convent that has ... in, and that is where the hyperhyphenation comes to the rescue. The gift shop, for instance, might sell convent-turned-women's=refuge T-shirts."

Uh, what's that equals sign doing there? Never mind that's crap. It'd sell, though.
"It's a shame these linguist schools don't teach this stuff. It's the minimum I'd expect from a good high school."

I'd hope that the high schools would teach better sentence structure than that, and that linguists would stay out of that sort of a mess.
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
Aaron J. Dinkin    744069 Sun, 16 Nov 03 07:37 AM

"... if those are the words that the writer is ... "turned", and an en dash between "turned" and "women's refuge"."

"Ugh! That's even worse than the original it uses two different punctuation marks where their force should be equal, but still doesn't resolve the basic issue by showing that the scope of the construct extends as far as "refuge"."

I think it does: I recall being taught that one of the roles of an en dash is to carry the force of a hyphen with the power to extend its scope over white space. The web page gives the example "a New York-based company" as one that would require an en dash. The web page cites the Chicago Manual of Style as agreeing with me. (I'm sorry to be citing web pages, but I don't believe I own a print book that contains a punctuation guide.)
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Skitt    744097 Sun, 16 Nov 03 08:00 AM

"... I recall being taught that one of the roles of an en dash is to carry the force of ... space. The web page gives the example "a New York-based company" as one that would require an en dash."

Why would it require any dashes on hyphens? "New York based company" does not leave any room for misinterpretation whatsoever, innit?
"The web page cites the Chicago Manual of Style as agreeing with me."

Whoopee!
"(I'm sorry to be citing web pages, but I don't believe I own a print book that contains a punctuation guide.)"

I don't think that there are any that could be classified as being authoritative anyway, lacking any definite punctuation rules for the English language.

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
R J Valentine    744112 Sun, 16 Nov 03 08:27 AM

...
} I think it does: I recall being taught that one of the roles of an en dash } is to carry the force of a hyphen with the power to extend its scope over } white space. The web page } gives the example "a New York-based company" as one that would require an } en dash. The web page cites the } Chicago Manual of Style as agreeing with me. (I'm sorry to be citing web } pages, but I don't believe I own a print book that contains a punctuation } guide.)
This is merely to confirm that they say it. My shiny new 15th edition of The Chicago Manual of Style says that in section 6.85 on page 262. I reject it, but it says it. Counting on micrometer measurement of a hyphen-like thing to determine the scope of one end of the hyphen but not the other is silliness of the level of the weakly advocated addition of periods and commas within quoted material.

Who you gonna believe, Chicago or me.

R. J. Valentine
R J Valentine    744113 Sun, 16 Nov 03 08:41 AM

}
}> I can see I have my work cut out for me on hyperhyphenation (q.g.). }> First of all, an en-dash is *never* used in hyperhyphenation it's }> only used in things like date ranges, and it's simulated with a }> hyphen (or with a slash when it's used in hyperendashation, as in }> George Washington (1730/9-1790/9)).
}
} How true, how true.
}
}> Second of all, "convent turned women's refuge" doesn't need *any* }> hyphens as a noun phrase. It's a convent that has turned (or has }> been turned) into a women's refuge. If necessary to avoid confusion }> with surrounding words, the "turned women's refuge" can be }> parenthesized. It's only when using the whole thing as a compound }> modifier that hyphenation kicks in, and that is where the }> hyperhyphenation comes to the rescue. The gift shop, for instance, }> might sell convent-turned-women's=refuge T-shirts. }
} Uh, what's that equals sign doing there?
That's not an equals sign; it's a hyperhyphen. Your computer should display it the same length as a hyphen. If it is displaying the same length as an en-dash, I don't wonder at your confusion. Hyperhyphens bind more tightly than hyphens, which bind more tightly than spaces. (Hypohyphens (on the other hand) look a lot like spaces, but are found in capitalized, italicized, quoted, or otherwise set-off material that don't need hyphens when serving as compound modifiers.) Didn't they teach this stuff in school back in the old days? Google "hyperhyphenation" or "hypohyphenation" for other discussion.
} Never mind that's crap. It'd } sell, though.
I don't see why not: Chicago sells.
}> It's a shame these linguist schools don't teach this stuff. It's the }> minimum I'd expect from a good high school.
}
} I'd hope that the high schools would teach better sentence structure than } that, and that linguists would stay out of that sort of a mess.

You have some problem with the sentence structure? Out with it. This is the place, and now is the time. Linguists are as welcome here as other users of English, but are asked to check their Linguist usage at the door.

R. J. Valentine
Skitt    744127 Sun, 16 Nov 03 09:03 AM

"}> I can see I have my work cut out for me on hyperhyphenation (q.g.). }> First of all, an ... there? That's not an equals sign; it's a hyperhyphen. Your computer should display it the same length as a hyphen."

It displayed it as an equals sign. That's why I called it that. Why else?
"If it is displaying the same length as an en-dash, I don't wonder at your confusion. Hyperhyphens bind more tightly ... modifiers.) Didn't they teach this stuff in school back in the old days? Google "hyperhyphenation" or "hypohyphenation" for other discussion."

Well, it didn't, so I skipped that paragraph. Sorry.
"} Never mind that's crap. It'd } sell, though. I don't see why not: Chicago sells. }> It's a ... are as welcome here as other users of English, but are asked to check their Linguist usage at the door."

Oh, good grief! I'm not going to wade through your screwed-up stuff to figure out what was going on before, but I will present a rewrite of the original sentence that would not offend anyone, not even you, m'kay?

I have to dig deep for this, as it is not in what you quoted, so hang in there for a skosh, arright?

Here it is
First the original sentence:
In (the book) "Paradise", a convent-turned-women's refuge is stormed by townsmen.
Now the all new, vastly improved, fat-free and healthful revised offering (may we have a BIG round of applause?)
Here it is
are you ready?
"Paradise", a convent now turned into a women's refuge, is stormed by the townsmen.
Call the police! Don't let them get away with the panties!
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
R J Valentine    744230 Sun, 16 Nov 03 10:17 AM

...
} First the original sentence:
} In (the book) "Paradise", a convent-turned-women's refuge is } stormed by townsmen.
}
} Now the all new, vastly improved, fat-free and healthful revised offering } (may we have a BIG round of applause?)
}
} Here it is
}
} are you ready?
}
} "Paradise", a convent now turned into a women's refuge, is stormed by the } townsmen.
}
} Call the police! Don't let them get away with the panties!

Is "Paradise" a book or the name of the former convent? The two sentences certainly say different things. There is no need at all for hyphens in the original version. Assuming that "Paradise" changes from being a book to being a former convent, the revised version is certainly readable at a lower grade level.

R. J. Valentine
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