AWILLIS957    743464 Sat, 15 Nov 03 06:55 PM Saw this in the paper today: In (the book) "Paradise", a convent-turned-women's refuge is stormed by townsmen. The meaning is perfectly clear, but is there not a slight miscue here, to the effect that this was once a convent refuge? On the other hand, if the hyphens are dropped, a different miscue arises, as you might think initially that "convent" is to be the subject and "turned" the main verb. Is the writer is trying to tell us too much in too few words? What do you think? Peasemarch. AWILLIS957 Hyphenation, Punctuation

	MEow    743510 Sat, 15 Nov 03 07:24 PM "Saw this in the paper today: In (the book) "Paradise", a convent-turned-women's refuge is stormed by townsmen. The meaning is ... main verb. Is the writer is trying to tell us too much in too few words? What do you think?" I read it as being a refuge for convent-turned-women, and that confuses me. Nikitta a.a. #1759 Apatriot(No, not apricot)#18 ICQ# 251532856 Unreferenced footnotes: http://www.nut.house.cx/cgi-bin/nemwiki.pl?ISFN "I get tired of being told what we are supposed to be. There is a man or woman out there to appreciate every kind of man or woman. Be yourself." ClaySkye (a.a.) MEow

	Aaron J. Dinkin    743542 Sat, 15 Nov 03 08:02 PM "Saw this in the paper today: In (the book) "Paradise", a convent-turned-women's refuge is stormed by townsmen. The meaning is ... main verb. Is the writer is trying to tell us too much in too few words? What do you think?" I think you're right that the writer is trying to tell us too much in too few words. However, if those are the words that the writer is intent on using, the correct way to punctuate it would be to use a hyphen between "convent" and "turned", and an en dash between "turned" and "women's refuge". Also acceptable, I think, would be to have three hyphens in "convent-turned-women's-refuge". -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom Aaron J. Dinkin Whom, Hyphenation, Punctuation

	Skitt    743577 Sat, 15 Nov 03 08:32 PM "Saw this in the paper today: In (the book) "Paradise", a convent-turned-women's refuge is stormed by townsmen. The meaning is ... main verb. Is the writer is trying to tell us too much in too few words? What do you think?" Yes, I don't see any way to clearly express the intended thought without the adition of a few words. Playing with dashes and hyphens will not improve anything for the reading public. Skitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ Skitt Hyphenation, Countries, United States, Punctuation

	Gary G. Taylor    743653 Sat, 15 Nov 03 10:54 PM "Saw this in the paper today: In (the book) "Paradise", ... too much in too few words? What do you think?" "Yes, I don't see any way to clearly express the intended thought without the adition of a few words. Playing with dashes and hyphens will not improve anything for the reading public." How about "convent-turned-women's-"refuge"? Gary G. Taylor * Rialto, CA gary at donavan dot org / http:// geetee dot donavan dot org "The two most abundant things in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." Harlan Ellison Gary G. Taylor Hyphenation, Punctuation

	Skitt    743669 Sat, 15 Nov 03 11:34 PM "Yes, I don't see any way to clearly express the ... and hyphens will not improve anything for the reading public." "How about "convent-turned-women's-"refuge"?" Why the scare quotes? It is a refuge, isn't it? I don't think it improves anything. Skitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ Skitt Hyphenation, Countries, United States, Punctuation

	Mark Brader    743757 Sun, 16 Nov 03 12:44 AM A. Willis quotes: "In (the book) "Paradise", a convent-turned-women's refuge is stormed by townsmen." "... if those are the words that the writer is intent on using, the correct way to punctuate it would be to use a hyphen between "convent" and "turned", and an en dash between "turned" and "women's refuge"." Ugh! That's even worse than the original it uses two different punctuation marks where their force should be equal, but still doesn't resolve the basic issue by showing that the scope of the construct extends as far as "refuge". "Also acceptable, I think, would be to have three hyphens in "convent-turned-women's-refuge"." This is the *only* acceptable choice (other than recasting the sentence, of course). If you use a hyphenated construct like -turned- with an expression of more than one word, you have to hyphenate the whole thing. Or so I say. But these days there seem to be a lot of people who find the original construction reasonable. (Shakes head) Mark Brader, Toronto "Logic is logic. That's all I say." (Email Removed) Oliver Wendell Holmes My text in this article is in the public domain. Mark Brader Articles, Constructions, Hyphenation, Sentences, Writing, Punctuation

	Michael Hamm    743935 Sun, 16 Nov 03 04:03 AM ""convent-turned-women's-refuge"." "This is the *only* acceptable choice (other than recasting the sentence, of course). If you use a hyphenated construct like ... say. But these days there seem to be a lot of people who find the original construction reasonable. (Shakes head)" Is that a "these days" thing? I thought it was old, too. In any event, it's certainly common, and logical, but often leads to barely-readable sentences, as above. The all-hyphens solution advocated by you (and used by me in informal writing (in formal writing, and sometimes even in informal writing, I try to recast the sentence)) is less logical, I think, less common, I think, and against taught rules of grammar (and, hence, presumably, conservative stylesheets), I think. Michael Hamm Since mid-September of 2003, AM, Math, Wash. U. St. Louis I've been erasing too much UBE. (Email Removed) Of a reply, then, if you have been cheated, http://math.wustl.edu/~msh210/ Likely your mail's by mistake been deleted. Michael Hamm Constructions, Hyphenation, Mistakes, Sentences, Punctuation

	Gary G. Taylor    743989 Sun, 16 Nov 03 05:11 AM "How about "convent-turned-women's-"refuge"?" "Why the scare quotes? It is a refuge, isn't it? I don't think it improves anything." Isn't the intended thought that the place is a communal living situation for lesbians? Don't the square quotes more clearly imply that? Gary G. Taylor * Rialto, CA gary at donavan dot org / http:// geetee dot donavan dot org "The two most abundant things in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." Harlan Ellison Gary G. Taylor