Raymond S. Wise    940860 Fri, 18 Jun 04 10:16 AM I intended to be humorous, but I also set out to give an example where "I could care less" or "I couldn't care less," because the example was intended to apply to both variants would be used in an *entirely friendly manner.* The sin of being Republican, after all, is something the person in question had *given up.* Let me use a more serious example: "You've been reluctant to tell me that you were once married? There's nothing to worry about: I could(n't) care less if you were." "I did say before that for me "I couldn't care less" is not hostile, whichis true, but I would tend ... getting at is that there are problemsconsidering "I could care less" to be just an illogical mistake, as some do." Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com Raymond S. Wise Marriage, Mistakes, Countries, Relationships, United States

	Dylan Nicholson    940868 Fri, 18 Jun 04 10:40 AM "Let me use a more serious example: "You've been reluctant to tell me that you were once married? There's nothing to worry about: I could(n't) care less if you were."" Better example. Here I would happily enough use 'couldn't', but never 'could'. Dylan Nicholson Marriage, Relationships

	Michael West    940879 Fri, 18 Jun 04 10:41 AM "The only point I'm really getting at is that there are problems considering "I could care less" to be just an illogical mistake, as some do." When you use it, I gather that you use it as a ready-made phrase, rather than as a conscious inversion of "couldn't care less"? Michael West Melbourne, Australia Michael West Mistakes, Countries, Australia

	Dylan Nicholson    940907 Fri, 18 Jun 04 11:41 AM "The only point I'm really getting at is that there are problemsconsidering "I could care less" to be just an illogical mistake, as some do." "When you use it, I gather that you use it as a ready-made phrase, rather than as a conscious inversion of "couldn't care less"?" I don't think anyone uses any common phrase in day-to-day speech in any sort of conscious manner. Dylan Nicholson Mistakes, Speaking, Speeches

	Michael West    940964 Fri, 18 Jun 04 01:31 PM "When you use it, I gather that you use it as a ready-made phrase, rather than as a conscious inversion of "couldn't care less"?" "I don't think anyone uses any common phrase in day-to-day speech in any sort of conscious manner." That cannot possibly be correct. "I couldn't care less" is a set phrase in my vocabulary. "I could care less" is not. I might say it, but I would be manufacturing it according to a set of rules, not using it as a ready-made phrase. Michael West Melbourne, Australia Michael West Vocabulary, Countries, Speaking, Australia, Speeches

	Ben Zimmer    941170 Fri, 18 Jun 04 05:25 PM "I'm not saying that the kids using it "should" know ... and the negative make up a small and interesting class." "It happened in my lifetime also, since according Mark Israel's AUE FAQ, the variant "'Could care less', which is used ... care less'), developed in the U.S. around 1960." I don't remember noticing the transformation, however. The quote is from http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxcouldc.html" Time to update the FAQ... last year I found a 1955 citation on Proquest: This Morning . . . With Shirley Povich The Washington Post, Sep 25, 1955, pg. C1 The National League clubs have always shied from pitching left-handers against the Dodgers, but Casey Stengel could care less about the Dodgers' reputation for beating southpaws. OED2's earliest cite for "couldn't care less" is from 1946 ( I Couldn't Care Less , a book by Anthony Phelps of the British Air Transport Auxiliary). With the Chicago Tribune now available on Proquest, that can be pushed back to 1944, in a short story by the British mystery writer Christianna Brand: 'Danger List' by Christianna Brand Chicago Daily Tribune, May 15, 1944, p. 18 "I couldn't care less, darling," said Frederica who, being on duty in the ward, could not go to the party. And here's an interesting pre-idiomatic version, also found in a short story serialized in the Chicago Tribune: 'The Wrong Man' by May Edgington Chicago Daily Tribune, Jun 11, 1934, p. 18 It was Benjamin who saw Cara off on the train in the morning. And he was wishing that he could care less, that he couldn't care at all. Ben Zimmer Negatives, Countries, United Kingdom, Great Britain, United States, Languages, Auxiliaries, Negations

	Michael West    941473 Sat, 19 Jun 04 01:24 AM "It happened in my lifetime also, since according Mark Israel's ... remember noticing the transformation, however. The quote is from http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxcouldc.html" "Time to update the FAQ... last year I found a 1955 citation on Proquest:" Thanks for those, Ben. There's an interesting chronicity here. The earliest cite for "couldn't care less" is the year of my birth. In the interim, its inversion has come to take its place. And when the inversion is itself inverted, and "couldn't care less" once again means but in a doubly ironical way what it did in 1944, perhaps then it will be time for my departure. Michael West Melbourne, Australia Michael West Countries, United Kingdom, Great Britain, Australia, Languages

	Dylan Nicholson    941474 Sat, 19 Jun 04 01:31 AM "And therein lies the problem - "I could care less" isn't what real people ever say in earnest. Yes, you can work out a literal meaning for it, but unless it's the sort of thing someone might say seriously, it doesn't work sarcastically." There's any number of phrases that I, at least, only use sarcastically... "And I'm the queen of sheba", "Like that's gonna happen", "Aren't you a real hero" etc. etc. And as I mentioned before, you *can* say "Do you really think I could care less?" Which quite obviously means "I couldn't care less" without being at all sarcastic. Dylan Nicholson Writing, Numbers

	Dylan Nicholson    941489 Sat, 19 Jun 04 01:34 AM "I can say "Do you really think (that) I couldn't care less?" without any trouble at all, and I can be understood, too." Yes but it means something quite different - it means that you really *do* care. At least, that's the only interpretation that makes much senes to me. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say it. Dylan Nicholson