We have partnered with TradePub to bring you free industry magazines and resources - no coupons or credit cards required!
Visit: englishforums.tradepub.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
Goodman
+
574975
Fri, 10 Oct 08 01:20 AM
 Huevos“ Goodman, your sentence is "This is a car". The rest is just an adjectival clause modifying " car". ”
What if I say "this car is designed and built with the newest technology..." You will agree it's passive, won't you? It's just the past participle is linked closely to the verb to be, rather than placed in a clause, but it's still in passive form, according to how it was explained to me year ago. I agree - "This is a car". The rest is just an adjectival clause modifying " car". However, I think this is where we differ and perhaps become confusing among learners because it depends on how the sentnece is dissacted, the voice may have appeared differently.
Joined on
Mon, Nov 7 2005
Senior Member
3,816
The name says it all!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Huevos
+
574979
Fri, 10 Oct 08 01:42 AM
Goodman, of course you can shuffle the elements of your sentences to convert them to passive voice but that doesn't make the original sentences passive voice.
Joined on
Tue, Mar 25 2008
Regular Member
626
British Native
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Goodman
+
575050
Fri, 10 Oct 08 06:02 AM
Huevos,
I was not trying to change the sentence to make it passive. So far I agree with almost all your posted comment. You have my respect. It was just an attempt to make a point from another grammatical angle. My original comment said "passive in nature". If I say " I am exhausted". Is this active or passive? My view from this angle is "passive" because I was taught to view the past participle used in conjunction with "verb to be" as passive. But some view the past participle as "adjective".
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
richard_s
+
575054
Fri, 10 Oct 08 06:45 AM
Notice that the verb to be is not used in passive voice (even though it is transitive). It is, however, used to form passive voice with other transitive verbs. That is to say, we use to be and the past participle (PP) form of a verb together to form passives. Remember: to be + adjective, to be + noun or any other use of to be as the verb of a clause cannot be put into passive voice.
Joined on
Sun, Oct 5 2008
Junior Member
65
Richard Stevenson IELI, Sturt Campus Flinders University, South Australia
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Cool Breeze
+
575078
Fri, 10 Oct 08 08:51 AM
Huevos “ Goodman “football is a popular sport played almost in all Asain and European countries. There is no direct agent here but it's still a passive structure. ”
That sentence is not in the passive voice. ”
Football is a popular sport [which/that is] played in almost all Asian and European countries. The sentence consists of a main clause and a relative clause, which has been reduced by omitting the relative pronoun and the passive auxiliary (is). I call such structures clause equivalents, but terminology is unimportant here. The relative clause - or its equivalent - is in the passive voice. A sentence ends with a full stop / period, an exclamation mark or a question mark. A clause need not have any punctuation after it, which is the case after the main clause in this sentence. CB
Joined on
Fri, Apr 7 2006
Senior Member
3,970
"I hope you'll all live to be 150 years old - and the last voice you hear is mine!" Frank Sinatra on stage in Oslo, Norway, 28 September 1991
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Goodman
+
575196
Fri, 10 Oct 08 04:53 PM
CB,
Thank you for your input. At least I know I am not the only one with the PASSIVE approach toward this typeof sentences.
<<<Football is a popular sport [which/that is] played in almost all Asian and European countries. >>>- The sentence consists of a main clause and a relative clause, which has been reduced by omitting the relative pronoun and the passive auxiliary (is). I call such structures clause equivalents, but terminology is unimportant here. The relative clause - or its equivalent - is in the passive voice. Huevos You were correct with your comment in the sense that my sentence was an active one because of the beginning structure of the sentence was “this is a car of the future…” , and what came after was “designed and built for safety and comfort” which is a adverbial clause. That- I completely agree, viewing from your angle. As I stated: “ from my grammatical angle…” that sentence is passive in NATURE”. My disagreement was not in the literal grammatical interpretation of the anatomy of the sentence, but the tone or voice of it. If you don’t mind, I like to know your take on this sentence “I am completely exhausted just watching these toddlers ! ”. Is this passive in your opinion? Or active? The reason I like to know is because some folks look at [exhausted] as an adjective, although it is a past participle. However, some may argue this is a passive voice sentence because my exhaustion was caused by the act of watching the toddlers. I can see it both ways as correct.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Huevos
+
575281
Fri, 10 Oct 08 10:29 PM
Goodman “Is this passive in your opinion? Or active?”
It's active. The verb to be is just being used as a linking verb, the adjectival clause to explain or identify something about the subject. In such cases the verb can be substituted with the word " equals" which is not the case with the passive voice. I think maybe the problem in understanding is because the verb to be is not an action verb making it unclear who is doing what to whom. Nevertheless the structure of the sentence is active voice.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Goodman
+
575306
Fri, 10 Oct 08 11:54 PM
Huevos, So am I correct to assume that your classification of “exhausted” is adjectival in nature? Perhaps, this is the difference between how you and I see it. For pure fact finding interest, I have done some more investigative research: Bear in mind, my sentence was “I am completely exhausted from …” Your answer was “It’s active”. http://www.perfectyourenglish.com/grammar/passives-agents.htm English Grammar Passives: Agents In most cases, the subject of an active verb (the agent) is not mentioned in the corresponding passive sentence. If it does have to be mentioned, we usually use an expression with by. - They gave me a warm welcome. (active)
- I was given a warm welcome by them. (passive)
- Children love toys. (active)
- Toys are loved by children. (passive)
- They built this house. (active)
- This house was built by them.
- Her attitude shocked me.
- I was shocked by her attitude.
It should be noted that by is not the only word with which the agent can be introduced. After the past participles of some 'stative’ verbs (verbs which refer to states, not actions) other prepositions can be used instead of by. - The state of his health worries me. (active)
- I am worried about the state of his health. (passive)
- Snakes scare me. (active)
- I am scared of snakes. (passive)
With is used when we talk about an instrument which is used by an agent to do an action. - He killed the snake with a stick. (active)
- The snake was killed (by him) with a stick. (passive)
__
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003AprJun/0312.html
Passive voice is a verb where the action is done to the subject of the
clause, often by something. (The verb "done" there is the first verb in the
passive voice in this email). The pattern is that there is a subject, a
verb,
perhaps an agent (the thing that "does" the verb to the subject, and
possible
other stuff too.
Something that seems to confuse people is the pattern of the subject, the
verb to be (is, are, will be, was, etc) and an adjective or participle - a
description of the subject.
For example, "I am confused" is technically in the passive voice. However it
is a description of me like "I am tall" which is definitely not in the
passive voice. The confusion comes about because english uses a similar
pattern to make passive voice.
I suggest that we do not discourage this simple form, whether it is a
passive
construction or a simple description.
"I am confused by the passive voice" is the third time I have used the
<<<passive voice>>> in this email. It has the pattern subject - "me", a
verb - "confuse", and an agent - "the passive voice" - the thing which did
the confusing.
For most verbs in english (and many modern european languages) the passive
voice is made by combining the past participle (often "something-ed") with
the verb to be. (That was the fourth example: subject is the passive voice,
verb is to make, agent is the whole description of how to make it). For
example, The example I have used here is the verb "to confuse" - the passive
of "to confuse" is "to be confused".
Continues..on website.
Hope this resolved the difference of interpretations.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Huevos
+
575311
Sat, 11 Oct 08 12:35 AM
Goodman, in the text copied from the website all the passives are formed from the verb to be followed by the past participle of the lexical verb. In none of your previous sentences is that the case.
|
|
|
|
|
|