Past Perfect

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jack112  #142116  Tue, 27 Sep 05 05:04 AM

1. I have never had more girlfriends than I have now. (Correct)

2. I have never had more girlfriends than I do now. (Is this one correct as well? How do I distinguish between a main verb and an auxiliary?)

 

An amateur player from a working class family, Francis Ouimet - played by Shia LeBeouf ("Holes") - shocked the golf world when at the 1913 U.S. Open, flanked by his 10-year-old caddie, he defeated his idol, the defending British champion Harry Vardon - played by Stephen Dillane. An unlikely match-up - "the ingénue versus the seasoned champ" - theirs was the greatest match the sport had ever known.

3. Theirs was the greatest match the sport had ever known. (How is past perfect used here? So 'had ever known' happened first? "Greatest match" is second? It doesn't really make sense? Wouldn't it make more sense if 'greatest match' happened first?

Thanks.

  
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Mister Micawber  #142222  Tue, 27 Sep 05 01:22 PM

#1 and 2-- Main verbs work as themselves or with the do operator:

I ate more today than I did yesterday.
I ate more today than I ate yesterday.
I have more girlfriends today than I did yesterday.
I have more girlfriends today than I had yesterday.

The auxiliary will have to be distinguished by context:

I have more girlfriends now than I ever have.
I have more girlfriends now than I had before.
I have more girlfriends now than did before.


The golf quotation is a bit odd-- I would expect present perfect (has ever known) if it were merely an advertisement for the movie.  Presumably the copywriter is viewing it as if the movie and the story were both finished, with the story finished first.

  
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Anonymous  #142322  Tue, 27 Sep 05 07:00 PM
 Paco2004 wrote:

Hello Jack

May I put my two cents?

       1. They have never needed me more than they do now.
       2. They had never needed me more than they do now.
       3. They had never needed me more than they did then.
As MM and Davkett said, the sentence #1 is a good sentence. I think the sentence #2 will be rarely used per se. Only plausible use of such a construct is the case where it is embedded in a conditional sentence like below.
       If she had looked no less lovely than she does now, I would have married her.
Otherwise a past-perfect-tense clause and a present-tense clause would rarely go along in a comparative sentence. The sentence #3 is, of course, possible.

paco

 

Just reverting back to the first example. Paco is right to my mind. My word, students throw up the most bizarre combinations. I love it though.

They had never needed me more than they do now.

We use 'had' to to refer to a time earlier than some other time. If that other time is the present then there is no point in using the past perfect. If that time is also in the past then this sentence would make grammatical sense, eg:

They had never needed me more than they did that day.

 

  
Jussive  #142329  Tue, 27 Sep 05 07:31 PM
Sorry, the above was me. I forgot to log in.
  
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Jussive  #142375  Tue, 27 Sep 05 11:01 PM
 Jack112 wrote:

 (How do I distinguish between a main verb and an auxiliary?)

1)'I have never had more girlfrends than I have (girlfriends) now.'

See how the second clause refers to the first?

 

2)'I have never needed you more than I have (needed you) now.'

See again how the second clause refers to the first? This sentence is nonsensical because you are comparing the same tense (the present perfect), and also, you have a time marker 'now'.

 

  
jack112  #142490  Wed, 28 Sep 05 07:39 AM

Sorry for my lack of understanding. Could you give me a few more examples as to how to distinguish between  them?

1. I have never had more girlfriends than I have now. (Correct)

2. I have never had more girlfriends than I do now. (Is this one correct as well? How do I distinguish between a main verb and an auxiliary?)

Thanks.

 

  
Jussive  #145509  Fri, 07 Oct 05 11:15 AM
 Jack112 wrote:

Sorry for my lack of understanding. Could you give me a few more examples as to how to distinguish between  them?

1. I have never had more girlfriends than I have now. (Correct)

2. I have never had more girlfriends than I do now. (Is this one correct as well? How do I distinguish between a main verb and an auxiliary?)

Thanks

Hi Jack. Sorry I didn’t reply to this earlier but I’ve been away.

Don’t worry about not understanding. English grammar is not always clear-cut and neither is the teaching of it.

What you have trouble with is auxiliaries that also have a lexical form such as ‘do’ or ‘have’. In their auxiliary form they help to create tense (bar creating questions or emphasis). They are used in conjunction with lexical verbs. As you know, lexical verbs often take complements or objects, for example:

‘I have homework.’

Here ‘homework’ is the object of the verb and, obviously, as we only have one verb (‘have’) in this sentence (clause), it is, therefore, being used as a lexical verb.

 

 

 

‘I have needed homework.’

‘I have always needed homework’

Bar some obvious exceptions such as when the predicate is a compound, two lexical verbs don’t fit together in the same clause. (Don’t confuse this with infinitives, participles or gerunds.) In other words, ‘have’ has to be an auxiliary as it is followed by the lexical verb ‘need’ and varies its tense. ‘Homework’ is therefore the object of the verb ‘need’. ‘Have needed’ is what is traditionally known as a verb phrase, a verb consisting of more than one word. One thing which you need to see is that this does not change if we replace the lexical verb ‘need’ with a verb which has both a lexical and auxiliary form:

‘I have done my homework.’

‘I have always done my homework.’

‘I have had homework.’

‘I have always had homework.’

There is a second verb so ‘have’ is the auxiliary, ‘done’ and ‘had’ are lexical verbs and ‘homework’ their object.

 

 

 

A. ‘I have done more homework than I do now.’

B. ‘I have needed more homework than I need now.’

C. ‘I have had more homework than I have now.’

These three are correct. Notice the lexical verbs in the first clauses match the lexical verbs in the second: ‘done’ and ‘do’; ‘needed’ and ‘need’; ‘had’ and ‘have’. Notice also that we are only comparing the past to the present and, other than that, we are comparing the same thing, for example, the homework I have done compared with the homework I do.

 

 

 

1. ‘He does more homework than I do.’

2. ‘He has done more homework than I have.’

3. ‘He has done more homework than I do now.’

 

4. ‘He needs more homework than I need.’

5. ‘He has needed more homework than I have.’

6. ‘He has needed more homework than I need now.'

 

7. ‘He has more homework than I have.’

8. ‘He has had more homework than I have.’

9. ‘He has had more homework than I have now.’

All the above are correct. (If number three compares a past completed action with a single present continuing action then it makes no sense. It only makes sense if the past perfect refers to a period of time and the present simple refers to an habitual action (as with ‘A’).

Notice (above) that when we are comparing different things or people there are more grammatically correct combinations. For example, the homework he has done compared with the homework I have done:

‘He has done more homework than I have.’

This sentence is elliptical because ‘have’ cannot be a lexical verb otherwise we would be comparing the lexical forms of ‘have’ with ‘do’ (‘having’ with ‘doing’). Have, in the second clause, only makes sense as an auxiliary whose lexical verb is implied. The sentence could alternatively read:

‘He has done more homework than I have done.’

 

It is nonsensical to compare the homework I have done with the homework I have done and therefore the sentence ‘I have done more homework than I have now,’ is incorrect because ‘have’ (as explained in the previous example) has to be an auxiliary and therefore (1) we are comparing two identical things and two identical people with two identical tenses (2) ‘now’ is nonsensical as you can’t ‘have done’ something ‘now’.

 

 

 

‘He has had more homework than I have.’

In this sentence, ‘have’ in the second clause could be either an auxiliary or a lexical verb. ‘Had’, in the first clause, is a lexical verb (as explained at the beginning) and we can compare the lexical forms of ‘had’ with ‘have’ (‘having’ with ‘having’; first clause, second clause):

‘He has had more homework than I have (homework)’

 

‘Have’, in the second clause, also works as an auxiliary because we are comparing two different things even if they are in the same tense:

‘He has had more homework than I have (had).’

 

Hope that’s helped.

Jussive

  
jack112  #145750  Sat, 08 Oct 05 03:11 AM
Thank you very much.
  
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