past perfect

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martinHorut

#514888 Sat, 17 May 08 03:43 PM

Hello, I wonder how past perfect is used in longer narratives. Let me pull a case in point:

"I went fishing this morning. Before I went fishing, I had gone to a shop..." And now, shall I use the past simple or the past perfect when continuing with ... "I bought / had bought a few apples there."

Many thanks.

martinHorut

Joined on Tue, Mar 11 2008

New Member (28)

Mister Micawber

#514897 Sat, 17 May 08 04:23 PM

.
Do this:

I went fishing this morning. Before I went fishing, I went to a shop.I bought a few apples there.

No call for past perfect-- it is a simple past narrative in clear chronological order.

Mister Micawber

Joined on Wed, Aug 4 2004

Yokohama

Veteran Member (21,258)

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master-- that's all.'

Clive

#514898 Sat, 17 May 08 04:23 PM

Hi,

I wonder how past perfect is used in longer narratives. Let me pull a case in point:

The word 'before' makes the sequence of events very clear without the past perfect, so it would be common to say it this way. (I've also made a few other chnages to make the narrative flow more smoothly.)

"I went fishing this morning. Before that, I went to a shop where I bought a few apples."

Without 'before', the past perfect serves to make the sequence clear, eg

"I went fishing this morning. I had gone to a shop where I bought a few apples (so I didn't get hungry while I was fishing)."

As shown in the above example, the past perfect also shifts the reader's attention temporarily in time, and then allows the attention to shift back to the main time featured in the narrative. Compare

"I went fishing this morning. Before that, I went to a shop where I bought a few apples. While I was in the shop, I saw my friend Tom. He was buying some paint. He told me that . . . ". Here, the reader's attention is shifted back in time from "the fishing time" to "the store time", and allowed to stay there.

Best wishes, Clive

Clive

Joined on Thu, Oct 28 2004

Canada

Veteran Member (21,212)

El tango argentino es un pensamiento triste que se puede bailar (The tango argentino is a sad thought which can be danced) Enrique Santos Discépolo

Past perfect, Past simple

New2grammar

#514909 Sat, 17 May 08 04:36 PM

Clive, please allow me to interrupt for a second.

Let's examine the momentary shift in time using past perfect. If I would like to add another point that happened while I was at the store, do I need to use past perfect again?

"I went fishing this morning. I had gone to a shop where I bought a few apples. Oh...I almost forgot, I [had run/ran] into Tom while I was in the shop, he was blah blah blah.

New2grammar

Joined on Tue, Nov 21 2006

Veteran Member (7,670)

Who wants to go sailing around the world with me?

Past perfect

Clive

#514932 Sat, 17 May 08 05:35 PM

Hi,

No, I wouldn't do that. You have already performed the shift.

Clive

New2grammar

#514937 Sat, 17 May 08 05:52 PM

Sorry, I promise this is my last post.
Won't that be confusing to the reader since you use past tense to describe both events; in the past's past and in the past. Reader won't know
whether you're still describing events that happened at the store or you've returned to the original time point (before the time shift occurred).

I went fishing this morning. I had gone to a shop where I bought a few apples. I ran into Amy (When did he meet Amy, after he went to the shop or during?)

If your answer is 'during', how do you 'undo' the time shift? I don't want to be stuck there forever. What's the code for the time machine to get me out?

Thanks in ADVANCE. I can't thank you after this because I'm a man of my word

Smile

New2grammar

Past tenses, Tenses

Clive

#514949 Sat, 17 May 08 06:24 PM

Hi,

Won't that be confusing to the reader since you use past tense to describe both events; in the past's past and in the past. Reader won't know
whether you're still describing events that happened at the store or you've returned to the original time point (before the time shift occurred).

I went fishing this morning. I had gone to a shop where I bought a few apples. I ran into Amy (When did he meet Amy, after he went to the shop or during?)

Typically, you'd avoid any confusion by how you word the sentence.

eg I went fishing this morning. I had gone to a shop where I bought a few apples, and I ran into Amy there. She smiled at me. While I was fishing, I caught 3 big ones.

If your answer is 'during', how do you 'undo' the time shift? I don't want to be stuck there forever. What's the code for the time machine to get me out?

As above, for example.

Often, just the meaning is enough. eg I met Tom yesterday. He had just bought his first car. He paid $20,000 for it. He let me drive it.

Best wishes, Clive

Thanks in ADVANCE. I can't thank you after this because I'm a man of my word

Best wishes, Clive

Clive

Past tenses, Tenses

Huevos

#515002 Sat, 17 May 08 10:15 PM

New2grammar
Won't that be confusing to the reader since you use past tense to describe both events

If everyone was really careful to always use the grammatically correct tense then using the "wrong" one might be pretty confusing, but that's not the case. English is pretty relaxed when it comes to past events and we often use the past indefinite where the past imperfect, past perfect, or present perfect might be grammatically preferable, but, because we are all used to hearing it we don't find it confusing.

Huevos