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past perfect in dependent clause

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The 13-th  #393962  Thu, 19 Jul 07 12:26 PM
Hello.
This is from James Blunt "Goodbye My Lover": "'Cause I saw the end before we'd begun...". Why is the past perfect used in the subordinate clause, i.e. after "before"? Shouldn't it be like "Cause I'd seen the end before we began..." to convey the meaning more accurately?
Thanks.
  
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Cool Breeze  #393989  Thu, 19 Jul 07 02:18 PM
If the speaker saw the end before they began whatever they began, yes, your suggestion is better.

CB
  
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The 13-th  #394018  Thu, 19 Jul 07 03:41 PM
Evidently, you don't seem to care too much about tense sequence. "Keep it simple!".... past simple.
  
Linguaphile  #394022  Thu, 19 Jul 07 03:56 PM

The Past Perfect can be used with before to emphasize the completion of an action, but  note that in before + past perfect + simple past combinations the simple past action will always precede the past perfect action.

Before we had finished our meal he ordered us back to work.

Before we had walked ten miles he complained of sore feet.

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Hope this helps.

  
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CalifJim  #394115  Thu, 19 Jul 07 09:12 PM
Students are often led to believe that the past perfect must indicate a situation that existed before another.  (This is true in general.)  But, following this logic, it seems that the past perfect could never occur in a before clause.  (It 'should' only occur in the main clause in such cases.)

But the use of the past perfect in a before clause is quite common regardless of the time sequence -- as in "I saw the end before we had begun".  [There's usually some surprising logic and a hidden negative in these:  I (already) saw the end (and that was surprising) because we had not (even) begun (yet). ]

Here are some others I found on various websites.  Note the implied negatives.  (had not yet ... when)

Mozart died before he had completed the Requiem Mass
.  [He had not yet completed the Mass when he died..]
One of the fast things suddenly zoomed by from the left and was gone before he had even realized it was coming. [He had not yet realized it was coming when it zoomed by.]
Before he had finished speaking, another servant came in and said that dinner was ready.  [He had not yet finished speaking when this happened.]
He was whisked away to his next appointment before he had announced the finalists. [He had not yet announced the finalists when he was whisked away.]
A terrible scream cleaved the air before he had walked very far.  [He had not yet walked far when the scream was heard.]
Before he had even recovered, ten days later he tried suicide again.  [He had not yet recovered when he tried suicide.]
He was surely the first man to be a senior official in the Ryder Cup before he had even played in the grand old match.  [He had not yet played in that match when he became a senior official.]
___________

Compare with the "normal" sequence of tenses, with no implied negations:

Jack had met her at a business conference before he noticed her that night at the party.
Before they proceeded with their project they had planned every detail, of course.
The politicians had used every trick in the book to pass the bill before they finally gave up.
___________

I would not be surprised to learn that before with implied negation (with the past perfect) is used more than before with the normal sequence of tenses.  Smile [:)]

CJ

  
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Linguaphile  #394128  Thu, 19 Jul 07 10:13 PM

Hi, Jim.

So I think we can safely assume

Past Perfect (action complete) + before + Simple Past

Simple Past + before + Past Perfect (action incomplete)

  
Iamnewbie  #394166  Fri, 20 Jul 07 01:12 AM
Isn't it a Subjunctive Mood, is it?
  
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CalifJim  #394175  Fri, 20 Jul 07 02:06 AM

So I think we can safely assume

Past Perfect (action complete) + before + Simple Past

Simple Past + before + Past Perfect (action incomplete)

It sounds reasonable, but any time someone comes up with a neat formula like that, it's time to get to work and find the counterexamples.  Nothing will send people rushing to find these counterexamples faster than if I say (or someone else says) that yes, that's a 100% correct statement of the "rule"!  Smile [:)]

That in mind, I would not say we can safely assume it.  We can accept it provisionally until we see the counterexamples.

And anyway, are we really talking about an incomplete action, or about an action that never happened?

CJ

  
CalifJim  #394176  Fri, 20 Jul 07 02:15 AM
Yes, you can call it subjunctive mood.

CJ

  
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