Pastsimple  +  216931 Mon, 17 Apr 06 07:30 PM In the first paragraph of his famous novel, Tim O'Brien writes: Billy Boy Watkins was dead, and so was Frenchie Tucker. Billy Boy had died of fright.... Since the event described in the second sentence happened earlier in time than the event in the first sentence, past perfect seems the obvious choice. I was wondering if it was possible to use "died" (past simple) in the second sentence: Billy Boy Watkins was dead, and so was Frenchie Tucker. Billy Boy died of fright.... Why? Since in order to be dead, one has to die first. Therefore, the proper sequence of events is still obvious: 1) he died of fright 2) then he was dead Is the above assumption correct? If so, which of these two versions is the better choice? If not, why not? Pastsimple Joined on Thu, Feb 16 2006 Czech Republic, Europe Full Member 328 If you are a native speaker and find any grammar or stylistic mistakes in my posts, don't hesitate to tell me! I will really appreciate that. Past Perfect, Past Simple, Paragraphs

	milky  +  216934 Mon, 17 Apr 06 07:40 PM  Pastsimple wrote: Billy Boy Watkins was dead, and so was Frenchie Tucker. Billy Boy had died of fright.... When they investigated the cause of death what did they find? (first past) They found that he had died of fright. (previous past) milky Joined on Thu, Jan 15 2004 Senior Member 3,149 Hume said that if we had perfect or complete descriptive knowledge of reality, we could not, by reasoning, derive a single valid "ought". Past Perfect

	Clive  +  216972 Mon, 17 Apr 06 10:31 PM Hi, Billy Boy Watkins was dead, and so was Frenchie Tucker. Billy Boy had died of fright.... It's true that you can say it with either tense. However, the literary effect is somewhat different. The writer begins to 'speak' at the time they are both dead. The Past Perfect gives more information but keeps the focus on the same time, the time of speaking. The Simple Past shifts the reader's attention back to the time that Billy Bob died. Best wishes, Clive Clive Joined on Thu, Oct 28 2004 Canada Veteran Member 29,665 El tango argentino es un pensamiento triste que se puede bailar (The tango argentino is a sad thought which can be danced) Enrique Santos Discépolo Tenses, Past Perfect, Simple Past

	Pastsimple  +  216984 Mon, 17 Apr 06 10:48 PM Thank you very much. That's what I was hinting at... Since O'Brien (as you pointed out) begins to "speak" at the time they are both dead and uses past perfect to keep the focus on the same time, he does so to continue "speaking" about the time they are both dead. If he had used past simple in the second sentence, he would have shifted the focus on the time of Billy's death and e.g. started to explain how exactly Billy Boy died, what happened on the day he died etc... Did I get it right? Pastsimple Past Perfect, Past Simple

	Clive  +  217004 Tue, 18 Apr 06 12:30 AM Hi again, Yes, you're right. Clive Clive