[title]Family quotes[/title] [description]Welcome to our family quotes section! Here you'll find some of the funniest (and wisest) quotes on the subject of family life![/description]
Learn English and meet people on the world’s largest EFL social network

We have partnered with TradePub to bring you free industry magazines and resources - no coupons or credit cards required!

Visit: englishforums.tradepub.com


1 2
Share this topic:
This question is Not Answered
Latest post Sat, Jul 3 2004 1:35 PM by Guest. 13 replies.
Suggest an answer | | |
Guest  +  35602 Sat, 03 Jul 04 01:35 PM
I am happy to dance with you.
I am happy to be dancing with you.

In which case am I dancing right now, and in which case is it possible that we are not dancing right now but are supposed to dance with eachother later?
anon1  +  35633 Sat, 03 Jul 04 05:06 PM
> dancing now.

> You might say this if you have just agreed to dance with someone and are on the way to the dance floor.

But if you plan to dance later...you might say....

I would be happy to dance with you. (I think that is a subjunctive sentence.)

I am not dancing with you NOW, but I *would* be happy to dance with you later.

Hope that helps.
Joined on Fri, Jul 2 2004
Senior Member 2,049
miriam  +  35725 Sun, 04 Jul 04 06:16 AM
Hello Smile [:)]

You can use either sentence at the moment when you are actually dancing. The second, however, is more specific.

"I am happy to be dancing with you" cannot be used to refer to the future.
And I'm not sure "I am happy to dance with you" can refer to the future either.

If you wish to refer to the future, the following may be useful:
A. "I will be happy to dance with you (at the party next Saturday)."
B. "I would be happy to dance with you (at the party next Saturday)."

In "A", the person you are talking to may or may not have already agreed to dance with you.
"B" is more a request or an invitation (the tense used in the prefect conditional, this is not an sentence in the subjunctive mood).

Miriam

Joined on Mon, May 10 2004
Argentina
Regular Member 821
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." Plato
taiwandave  +  35783 Sun, 04 Jul 04 07:42 PM
Miriam: what's the perfect conditional, and how does it differ from and relate to the subjunctive mood? It seems that sentences beginning in the subjunctive mood have a perfect conditional "tail", as in:

If I were you I would be happy to dance with him.

I'm also curious about any possible tie-in to the perfect infinitive, as in a sentence like:

If you had been there you would have been happy to dance with him.

I'm sure a lot of readers would love to see this topic explained clearly -- thanks!

Joined on Mon, Jun 7 2004
Taoyuan City, Taiwan
Full Member 287
anon1  +  35810 Sun, 04 Jul 04 09:02 PM
taiwandave,

I would be happy to dance with you. (I think that is a subjunctive sentence.)

I think Miriam is correct in that it is not a subjunctive.

But if we use your sentence,

If I were you I would be happy to dance with him.

then I believe it is a subjunctive.

Looking at English grammar website we note that....

We use subjunctives mainly when talking about events that are not certain to happen. For example, we use the subjunctive when talking about events that somebody:

* wants to happen
* hopes will happen
* imagines happening

Look at these examples:

* The President requests that you be present at the meeting.
* It is vital that you be present at the meeting.
* If you were at the meeting, the President would be happy.








taiwandave  +  35819 Sun, 04 Jul 04 10:14 PM
I don't doubt that Miriam is correct. I was asking her for more information because I'd never heard of the perfect conditional and I would like to learn about it.
anon1  +  35826 Sun, 04 Jul 04 10:46 PM
taiwandave,

You might want to look here or here or here for starters. I am sure Miriam can provide a more complete description.

Quoting from the last reference:

It is used in the 3rd Conditional to talk about imaginary situations in the past: eg: If she'd seen the advert, she would have applied for the job.
miriam  +  35867 Mon, 05 Jul 04 04:49 AM
Hello, Dave Smile [:)]

would + base form of verb = simple conditional

would + have + past participle = perfect conditional

I don't know those by any other names, but of course it is probable that there may be authors who may give those different names.
In my mother tongue, the "conditional" used to be considered a "mood" some time ago, but later on the two tenses were made part of the "indicative" mood. Long ago, it was also called "modo potencial" -which is a name I still like- because the two forms at the beginning of this post (rather, their Spanish equivalents) were/are used to refer to some the "potentiality" of the occurrence of a certain event.
In this topic in particular, there is no difference between Spanish and English. In English, both tenses are also used to refer to the "potentiality" of a certain event, state or action.

The conditionals (the verb forms, not the 3 types of conditional sentences) are different from the subjuntive both in form and in meaning. It is true, however, that they are used "together" in certain constructions such as conditional sentences Types II and III:
"If she did not love you, she would not have married you."
"She would have come if you had asked her."

Also your example:
"If I were you I would be happy to dance with him."

All three sentences contain a verb in the "subjunctive" mood (in the if-clause), and a "conditional".
In my examples, the subjunctive is "unmarked": you see the forms we use for the simple past and the past perfect. In your example, the subjunctive is "marked" by the use of "were" (instead of "was") for the first person singular.

So, the subjunctive mood and the conditional may occur together, but also, they may not:
There is only the subjunctive in "I wish you were here".


The "perfect infinitive" does not take "would". Here are a few examples:
"I am glad to have been of help."
"We were supposed to have met at the cinema at 7."
"She should have called earlier."
"She can't have rung Harry because the phone was out of order."

There is a difference between these two sentences, other than the difference in meaning:
1. "She would have told you the truth."
2. "She should have told you the truth."
In #1, the "perfect conditional" is used; in #2, should + the perfect infinitive. Even when both forms look pretty much alike, they are different.

In English, I have learned, you sometimes use the same constructions to convey different meanings. That happens, for example, with the subjunctive.
In "I had enough money, so I bought a new house" and "If I had enough money I'd buy a new house", had is used differently. In #1 it is the simple past of the verb to have both in form and meaning. In #2, even when the form is the same as that of the simple past, the meaning is not, and it is used for want of a form that belongs to the subjunctive mood. That's why this case is called "unmarked" subjunctive; there is nothing in the verb form itself that will tell you it is not to be understood as the simple past. The difference is provided by the context.

In your example:
"If you had been there you would have been happy to dance with him"
"had been" is used as unmarked subjunctive, and "would have been" is a perfect conditional, not a perfect infinitive. Compare your sentence to the following:
"If I were you, I would be happy to have danced with him", in which the perfect infinitive is used (this sentence is different from yours in meaning).

Sometimes I'm a bit long-winded. Please tell me if this is what you asked and, if it is, let me know if the explanation is clear enough.

Regards,

Miriam
taiwandave  +  35978 Mon, 05 Jul 04 05:55 PM
Miriam,

It is posts like this one that make this forum really worthwhile for users like myself. Thank you. Fascinating information and all new to me. Incidentally, I'd noticed you using the term "marked subjunctive" somewhere else and at the time didn't think to ask what it meant. In future I'll be sure not to waste any learning opportunities.

I plan to read the post several more times and after that will let you know if I have any questions.

By the way, you are not at all long-winded. The level of detail you deliver is the very thing that makes your explanations so good. It is pleasure reading about grammar when it's explained so clearly. You really ought to give serious consideration to writing a high-level grammar book at some point.

DA.
1 2
© MediaCet Ltd. 2009, v5.0.3616.28671. All content posted by our users is a contribution to the public domain, this does not include imported usenet posts.*
For web related enquires please contact us on webmaster@mediacet.com, status updates are available at status.mediacet.com.
*Usenet post removal: Use 'X-No-Archive'. You may not have understood that your posts would end up in the public domain. Please send proof of the poster's email, we will remove immediately.