jack112  +  65194 Tue, 04 Jan 05 10:24 AM Are these correct? What do they mean? I hear people say these, what's the point of using 'smokes' vs 'smoke'? 1. Holly smokes. 2. Holly smoke. I heard this in a movie but I don't get why 'homes' is plural? 3. You guys need to return to your homes now! 4. You guys need to return to your home now! Thanks. jack112 Joined on Thu, Jul 22 2004 Regular Member 715 Plurals

	Mister Micawber  +  65216 Tue, 04 Jan 05 02:25 PM (1 & 2) Not 'holly'-- 'HOLY smoke/smokes' is a euphemism for, I suppose, the Holy Spirit in the Christian tripartite godhead. (3 & 4) Each guy has one home-- that is the shared knowledge between speaker and listener. Grammatical concord and notional concord agree on this. Mister Micawber Joined on Wed, Aug 4 2004 Yokohama Veteran Member 30,501 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master-- that's all.'

	jack112  +  65256 Tue, 04 Jan 05 08:28 PM (3 & 4) Each guy has one home-- that is the shared knowledge between speaker and listener. Grammatical concord and notional concord agree on this. I don't really get the explantion above, what do you mean by 'that is the shared knowledge between speaker and listener.' ? So these two sentences mean the same thing? 3. You guys need to return to your homes now! (I still don't understand why 'homes' is plural.) 4. You guys need to return to your home now! (And I don't understand why I never here them say this.) jack112 Plurals

	Mister Micawber  +  65292 Wed, 05 Jan 05 12:53 AM When I mention 'shared knowledge', Jack, in a context, what I mean is that when we speak, we expect our listener to know some of the same things that we do. For example, if I say, 'I've got eleven fingers', I expect the listener to know that ten fingers is the norm, and reply, 'Oh, my! Please show me!' If I ask the listener, 'Where's my pencil?', then I think s/he might know-- and the listener also thinks that I think that s/he might know. Much of what we say, and how we say it, even to the violation of 'grammar rules', depends on our belief that the listener is able to understand us through common knowledge about the world and familiarity with our shared experiences and conditions. Because we know-- it is shared knowledge-- that each guy probably has his own house-- we can understand both sentences (3) and (4) as carrying that meaning, even though (3), which exhibits grammatical concord (agreement) between plural 'guys' and plural 'homes', is the 'correct' sentence. (4) is acceptable because it has notional concord: we get the idea. The careful writer, nonetheless, and most speakers, would choose (3). It is certainly possible for all the guys to live in the same large home together-- that may even be the case here, for I have no idea of the context. If that is true, then only (4) is acceptable, and (3) would be completely misleading, since there is indeed only one home no matter how it is viewed, notionally or grammatically. Mister Micawber Grammar, Plurals

	jack112  +  65345 Wed, 05 Jan 05 06:56 AM Thanks. Scenario: I need to burrow the key to open the lock but the guy with the key has the key on his keychain. So do I say 'key's or 'key'? 1. I need to burrow your keys to open the lock. 2. I need to burrow your key to open the lock. jack112

	Casi  +  65387 Wed, 05 Jan 05 11:39 AM If the key is among a set of keys (e.g., it's on a key chain with other keys) then use "keys" or "key". By the way, 'burrow' is the wrong word. Animals burrow (dig a hole). Try, borrow. Casi Joined on Sat, Sep 25 2004 Regular Member 547

	jack112  +  68227 Mon, 17 Jan 05 08:27 PM 3. You guys need to return to your homes now! 4. You guys need to return to your home now! Much of what we say, and how we say it, even to the violation of 'grammar rules', depends on our belief that the listener is able to understand us through common knowledge about the world and familiarity with our shared experiences and conditions. Because we know-- it is shared knowledge-- that each guy probably has his own house-- we can understand both sentences (3) and (4) as carrying that meaning, even though (3), which exhibits grammatical concord (agreement) between plural 'guys' and plural 'homes', is the 'correct' sentence. (4) is acceptable because it has notional concord: we get the idea. The careful writer, nonetheless, and most speakers, would choose (3). 1. These cars have a engine. (Does this mean each car has one engine or does it mean all these cars here have ONE engine? How do you know what it means?) 2. These cars have engines. (Does this mean each car has one engine or does it mean each car has many engines? How do you know? If #2 is wrong, why? #3 is correct?) Thanks. jack112 Grammar, Plurals

	jack112  +  69993 Tue, 25 Jan 05 08:12 PM 3. You guys need to return to your homes now! 4. You guys need to return to your home/ now! (3 & 4) Each guy has one home-- that is the shared knowledge between speaker and listener. Grammatical concord and notional concord agree on this. What's the point of using #3 vs #4 and vice versa? Thanks. jack112

	Mister Micawber  +  70008 Tue, 25 Jan 05 10:33 PM Use either one if each has his own home; use (4) only if they all live together. Mister Micawber