Possessive of a proper name

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rishonly  #190223  Sun, 29 Jan 06 02:58 AM

Hello,

(1) The possessive form of  "Charles" : Charles'  or Charles's.

(2) The posessive form of  "Roberts" :  Roberts'  , but not  Roberts's.

Would you please explain to me why the underlined possessive form is wrong? 

PS: I wasn't able to find out the related thread that discussed about the posessives.

  
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Regards, Krish
CalifJim  #190251  Sun, 29 Jan 06 06:51 AM
It seems to me that Charles is a first name and Roberts is a last name.  Last names are regarded as plurals.

Charles's cat belongs only to Charles.
The Roberts' cat belongs to everyone in the Roberts family.

The rules for making possessives from singular proper nouns and the rules for making possessives from plural nouns are different.

CJ

  
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Clive  #190254  Sun, 29 Jan 06 07:03 AM

Hi,

Swan discusses this in his Practical English Usage (Section 261 on Genitives).

Charles is a singular name, and takes 's (although classical and other special names often don't).

eg Charles's house.

Roberts sounds like a family name, referring to several people, so just put an apostrophe.

eg The Roberts' house.

Best wishes, Clive

  
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paco2004  #190269  Sun, 29 Jan 06 08:01 AM
Quirk's CGEL says about possessives for -s words like this way:

[1] plural -s words. -s' : boys', cats', Davys', Roberts'

[2] singular -s word
    1. pronounced S : -s's : Ross's [rosiz]
    2. pronounced Z : -s'/-s's  either forms are allowed.
                             : Dickens'/*Dickens's [dikinziz/*dikinz], Jones'/Jones's[jounziz/*jounz] 
                      Jesus/*Jesus's [jeezis], Moses/*Moses's [moziz]
                              <The sign * implies the minority>
    3. Greek names : -s'  : Socrates' [sokrtiz], Xerxes' [kurkusez]
    4. fixed phrases : -s'  : for goodness' sake [goodniz]

 
paco

  
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rishonly  #190385  Sun, 29 Jan 06 04:11 PM
Thanks all for your response.
  
Anonymous  #218530  Fri, 21 Apr 06 08:59 PM

Hi:

You have probably already received other answers. 

The basic answer is:  because "Roberts" is plural.  According to convention, Roberts's means that you are referring to one person whose name "Roberts" happens to end in "s".

Mr. Roberts's house

The Roberts' house

Mr. Roberts lives alone, whereas the second case refers to a family.

Does this make any sense.

Eve

  
Anonymous  #218531  Fri, 21 Apr 06 08:59 PM

Hi:

You have probably already received other answers. 

The basic answer is:  because "Roberts" is plural.  According to convention, Roberts's means that you are referring to one person whose name "Roberts" happens to end in "s".

Mr. Roberts's house

The Roberts' house

Mr. Roberts lives alone, whereas the second case refers to a family.

Does this make any sense.

Eve

  
Grammar Geek  #218610  Sat, 22 Apr 06 04:01 AM

I think this is the first time I've ever disagreed with Clive.

If the family last name is Roberts. (George Roberts, Jane Roberts, daughter Judy, and their dog Astro), then the entire family are the Robertses.  Mr. Roberts's house as, as described above, but the Robertses' house for the entire family. Speaking as someone whose last name is Davis, we are the Davises. The Davises' house is our collective house.  Barbara Davis's (singular) children are the cutest on the planet.

I also complete agree with Paco about whether you "say" the extra s. My department is Communications.  If we refer to our conference room, we don't say "communications-ziz" so we don't put the 's on Communications's conference room.

I understand there is disagreement on this.  This is just my view. But since I have to sign my own name, sign our family name on holiday cards, and make both of them possessive every once in a while, it's perhaps more relevant to me than a hypothetical example.

  
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Anonymous  #250889  Mon, 31 Jul 06 05:48 PM
As a person who has married into the Harris family, I found your post extreamlt helpful!  Thank you!
  
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