Prescriptive Grammar

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just the truth  #72371  Sun, 06 Feb 05 01:07 AM
just the truth san wa nihonjin deshoo?

JT: Chigaimasu, Juri san. Kanadajin desu.

Julie san: Not to stray from the topic...
Since I'm a beginner in Japanese, I do have to consciously remember the rules.

JT: The important distinction to make between the rules that you do and should follow is that they are actual rules about how Japanese works. There are of course, thousands upon thousands upon thousands of similar real rules in English.

The prescriptions, the ones that are false rules are the ones that waste so much ESL time and mislead ESLs, folks that don't have the innate grammars to overrule these falsehoods.
  
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julielai  #72380  Sun, 06 Feb 05 01:44 AM
Sooooooo. (Julie's own translation: ah, I see.....(????) Kanada wa samusugiru. (Canada is too cold)

hmmm...I'm a beginner in Japanese, so every rule seems "real" enough to me. All basic English grammar rules seemed real enough to me when I was a kid, but it has taken me decades (yes, I am that old) to figure out where the exceptions and the fuzzy areas are. Then I realize there really aren't that many hard-and-fast rules. Maybe to some people they are not "real" rules, who knows.

When we first learn how to cook (Tonkatsu for instance), we follow the recipe. Once we understand how Tonkatsu is made, then we can make our own adjustment to the recipe. No?

Edited to add: now if you're real good with Tonkatsu, you'll be able to start up your own chain of Just-the-truth Shokudoo, and your Tonkatsu recipe will become the RULE (the prescription, the whatever) for generations to come. Kind of like how Shakespeare and other famous writers had shaped the Eng. lang.

Smile [:)]


  
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MrPedantic  #72393  Sun, 06 Feb 05 03:02 AM
Yesterday's prescriptions are today's descriptions.

(And today's descriptions are tomorrow's prescriptions.)

MrP
  
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Su Cheng Zhong  #72555  Mon, 07 Feb 05 01:31 AM
Comparing with other forum, this forum seemed like a warfield. Yet I support the opinion of the host that English did have serious question in its grammar. The reason that so many writers against him are that most of them don't know a language other than English. A sort of malnutrition.
  
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julielai  #72576  Mon, 07 Feb 05 05:11 AM
I won't comment on your post, Su, but I'd like to add a few other remarks.

When I was a kid, I did benefit from grammar lessons. After all, English has relatively few inflections and rely mainly on word order, so sentence structure has to be a sustantial part of the basic curriculum. But by the time I did O-level, I couldn't help but notice how the majority of my classmates were still struggling with basic grammar and semantics. A couple of reasons for that:

1. When students don't back up their grammar lessons with extensive exposure to English, grammar is all they can hang on to, and they'll end up learning the same rules over and over. Partly the curriculum's fault -- emphasis on reading and writing is often inadequate.

2. A passive learning environment -- back in my days, students were encouraged to trust their source of authority - be it an English textbook, an English teacher, a native speaker...students didn't learn to challenge the authority and think for themselves. To these students, the grammar was a source of authority. So these poor kids were spoonfed the rules and they often didn't know how to apply grammar sensibly.

(I was a bit of a rebel back then (okay, still am) and I ended up quarrelling with my Eng teachers quite a bit. Needless to say, my Eng. teachers didn't like me.)

I think overemphasis of grammar is certainly a problem in many outdated ESL curriculum. To me, an ideal ESL programme should:

1. help students learn the rules but not at the expense of effective communication.
e.g. the following is certainly not a good opening for a complaint letter, though it is grammatical enough:

I was horrified to see the mountains of rubbish covering xyz recently. Instead of a fresh, beautiful start to the New Year, it seems like we have gone back in time. It was painfully obvious that all the money spent over the years by the government educating the public to respect the environment and keep it clean has been wasted. It’s ostensibly quite puzzling......

(Sadly, this is the sort of writing that is taught in some ESL programmes in China.)

2. teach kids to think for themselves, or they won't have anything interesting to communicate in the first place






  
CalifJim  #72580  Mon, 07 Feb 05 06:31 AM
Su,

I'm quite surprised to hear you say that. Generally speaking, my opinion is that those of us that are "against the host", as you put it, have much more experience with other languages than he does. I have no way of knowing this, of course; it's just my impression. Strange that it should be the opposite of yours!

You see, through my experience learning other languages, I have found, quite like Julie, that knowing some basic "rules", regardless of how prescriptive, is one of best ways to get started in learning a language. Gradually, the rules are relaxed, of course, but had I been subjected to discussions of all the different registers of writing and speaking at once, I would have thrown down my books in confusion and never have learned another word!

It seems to me that, in the beginning, the job of the language teacher, and the textbooks, is to "put words in the students' mouths". The teacher's job is to get the students speaking. But which words will we have them speak? At first that decision is more the teacher's than the students'. I think that that decision can and should be based on the reasonable assumption that the student wishes to learn the most standard variety of English as spoken by educated speakers of that language. If the student eventually wishes to enter a university where he or she will need English, for example, the goal is the quite practical one of mastering the vocabulary and grammar which will be needed in that setting. To be practical and efficient in reaching this goal, it would be foolish to waste time on lengthy discussions of American expressions used only in the Ozarks, for example, or the idiosyncracies of California "valley girl" vocabulary, or the variations in vowel quality between the English of Scotland and that of India. These are all descriptive of English and worthy academic topics, but that doesn't make them valuable additions to the curriculum for a non-specialist who needs English not for its own sake but to survive in the world of engineering, physics, or business, for example.

I feel the same about topics in linguistics. Being the "science of language", it is a dispassionate examination of the way people use language. It has nothing to offer, by its very nature, in terms of recommendations to the student. Being a science, it cannot recommend. It can only observe and describe. As a science, it is completely tongue-tied when the student asks, "What should I say in this situation?", "What word do I use here?", because all it can answer is "Well, 45% of native speakers say this, and 32% say that, and 11% say this", and so on. "But what should I say?" the student pleads. "So sorry, we don't make recommendations. It wouldn't be politically correct. We might slight some socially disadvantaged group of speakers who have just as much right to be represented in this class as any other speaker of English." And it's exactly in this last bit where we see the true 'science' of linguistics.

CJ
  
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just the truth  #72652  Mon, 07 Feb 05 02:04 PM
I'm kinda busy now. Here's a bit to chaw on.

A prescriptivist's fantasies:

http://chronicle.com/jobs/2002/06/2002062101c.htm

Two descriptivist's replies [scientifically based]

1) http://www-csli.stanford.edu/~nunberg/fish.html

2) http://chronicle.com/letters/2002/07/2002070903l.htm


And they, in spite of what Jim says, make some pretty strong recommendations.

I have not, as yet, been able to find a reply, a rebuttal from the prescriptivist, Professor Fish. Not that there couldn't be one out there somewhere. I for one would sure love to see one. I truly would!
  
julielai  #72661  Mon, 07 Feb 05 03:30 PM
Linguistics has become a big part of some TESL programmes. From what I can tell, the TESL programmes back home are recruiting students who need ESL programmes themselves, and the curriculum does nothing but give them a headful of theories. By the time they graduate, they still don't have much of a clue what Eng. is all about.

Forget about theories, throw these students into the language lab and have them listen to English all day......then you'll make a good Eng teacher out of him/her!

  
MrPedantic  #72665  Mon, 07 Feb 05 03:49 PM
For my part, I'm always suspicious when 'scientific' is used as part of a value judgement.

Isn't that rather 'unscientific'?

MrP
  
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