anon1  +  72668 Mon, 07 Feb 05 04:04 PM Julielai, Forget about theories, throw these students into the language lab and have them listen to English all day......then you'll make a good Eng teacher out of him/her! If it were that simple, then all native English speakers would be highly proficient in speaking, reading, and writing. Unfortunately, they ain't. Moreover, listening is trivial. Monkey's can listen to English all day, but I am not sure you want to have a long conversation with a monkey. Corresponding with an English speaking person by talking and writing will get the synapses firing. But in order to communicate, you have to know some ground rules. MountainHiker anon1 Joined on Fri, Jul 2 2004 Senior Member 2,049 Grammar, Conversations

	anon1  +  72669 Mon, 07 Feb 05 04:23 PM MrPedantic, Isn't that rather 'unscientific'? I read the articles referenced by JTT. I didn't see anything "scientific" about them. They were just rebuttals based on prior works. Okay, fine. MountainHiker anon1 Grammar, Articles

	julielai  +  72676 Mon, 07 Feb 05 05:17 PM Mountainhiker: Corresponding with an English speaking person by talking and writing will get the synapses firing. But in order to communicate, you have to know some ground rules Julie: Please refer to my previous posts on learning Japanese. Re: TESL/ESL My comment has to be understood in the context of which I spoke. The Eng teacher programmes I mentioned have been known to recruit students who need remedial assistance. Instead, these students are stuffed with a headful of theoretical knowledge. Now these people have been learning grammar all their lives but they still can't "get it" because they haven't "consolidated" their knowledge with adequate exposure to the language. And what they need is exposure, not reiteration of grammar / rules. They've learned enough rules. They don't need more courses on linguistic and educational theories -- at least not until they've acquired a basic competency in English through exposure. By the way, many of these graduates I speak of receive an IELTS score of between 6 and 7 -- pretty low for English teachers! But if you talk to them, they can give you the latest and greatest on ESL and linguistic research. Kind of like what I said about making Tonkatsu -- memorizing the recipe is all very well, but you can't get it until you've tried the recipe numerous times. julielai Joined on Sun, Oct 24 2004 Senior Member 3,827 Just another blogger (http://hk.myblog.yahoo.com/julie-lai) Grammar, IELTS

	CalifJim  +  72681 Mon, 07 Feb 05 05:34 PM The Eng teacher programmes I mentioned have been known to recruit students who need remedial assistance. Instead, these students are stuffed with a headful of theoretical knowledge. Now these people have been learning grammar all their lives but they still can't "get it" because they haven't "consolidated" their knowledge with adequate exposure to the language. And what they need is exposure, not reiteration of grammar / rules. They've learned enough rules. They don't need more courses on linguistic and educational theories -- at least not until they've acquired a basic competency in English through exposure. I love you, Julielai!!! Oops, sorry! I got carried away! CalifJim Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004 California Veteran Member 22,399 "There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche Grammar

	CalifJim  +  72683 Mon, 07 Feb 05 05:40 PM Hi, MountainHiker, I think the listening to English all day was just hyperbole. I think Julie's main point was that there is a difference between learning to use a language and learning to quote theories about language. As for the monkeys, I agree. At least you probably wouldn't want to have a long conversation with any of them that I have to work with every day! Anyway, monkeys don't have the necessary brain power to acquire language, so I'm not sure that's an apt comparison. Shall we say that the monkeys thing is also hyperbole? Best regards, Jim CalifJim Regards, Grammar, Difference Between, Conversations, Hyperboles

	julielai  +  72688 Mon, 07 Feb 05 06:18 PM CalifJim: Oops, sorry! I got carried away! Don't worry. I assume that was also hyperbole. julielai Grammar, Hyperboles

	anon1  +  72695 Mon, 07 Feb 05 07:08 PM julielai, I see CJ already commented. I agree with your comments and CJ's comments. I just took issue with "listening" only. Agreed, exposure is required. But the best exposure is where you are forced to communicate. When I studied a foreign language I tended to study more of the textbook and didn't actively seek out opportunities to practice communicating as much as I should have. Many of my classmates who went to the bar and chatted up the locals learned the language better than I did. I might have known more of some of the subtleties, but they could function better in the environment. So I think we're saying the same thing, essentially. MountainHiker anon1 Grammar

	anon1  +  72697 Mon, 07 Feb 05 07:15 PM CJ, As seen from my comments to Julielai, we're on the same page, I think. ...monkeys don't have the necessary brain power to acquire language, so I'm not sure that's an apt comparison. I think Monkey's can communicate, just not at our level. I think they'd be stuck if you "stuck" them in a cage with a TV and expected them to learn anything. They's probably just smash the TV and hurt themselves. So even "watching and listening" isn't enough. I think the key is interaction (exposure). And that is what our friend julielai was refering to. Monkey Communication Back to the zoo. MountainHiker anon1 Grammar

	julielai  +  72703 Mon, 07 Feb 05 08:03 PM I'm glad we're on the same page! Seriously, I think those of us who have a basic command of a second language more or less go through the same learning process. julielai Grammar