julielai  +  73508 Sat, 12 Feb 05 03:46 AM May I add my two cents? From my experience, most assumptions in social science research have inherent cultural bias. e.g. Back in the 70s, psychologists all rushed to the conclusion about how having a good self-esteem is oh-so-vital to our learning process. Now they go to the other side of the spectrum and say "maybe self-esteem isn't so important after all". Yet, human nature hasn't changed in the past 30 years. julielai Joined on Sun, Oct 24 2004 Senior Member 3,827 Just another blogger (http://hk.myblog.yahoo.com/julie-lai) Grammar

	Casi  +  73522 Sat, 12 Feb 05 06:48 AM Julie wrote: . . . most assumptions in social science research have inherent cultural bias Fantastic point, Julie. It's not really a matter of the sciences, per se, though, . . . or is it?("Scientists" used to think the world was flat.) Maybe science, soft or hard, and learning and acquisition are more about navigating our way through the variablity to find that constant that works more efficiently. Casi Joined on Sat, Sep 25 2004 Regular Member 547 Grammar

	MrPedantic  +  73537 Sat, 12 Feb 05 10:00 AM most assumptions in social science research have inherent cultural bias That's what intrigues me about the works that have been cited in this thread, such as Bailey's essay and Pinker's Language Instinct. A mathematician can stand back from his Xs and Ys and Zs. And I can imagine a style of linguistics that stood back from coordinated pronouns and 'split infinitives', and simply regarded them as part of the squeaks and puffs and grunts of the human animal. But Pinker and Bailey seem to be quite emotionally involved in their various polemics. MrP MrPedantic Joined on Tue, Oct 12 2004 Veteran Member 12,592 ...opella forensis / adducit febris... Nouns, Essays, Grammar, Pronouns

	CalifJim  +  73572 Sat, 12 Feb 05 05:52 PM Re: emotionally involved Especially in Bailey's case, when it comes to the "subjunctive". I think he had some sort of trauma involving the subjunctive earlier in his life, and it's affected him adversely forever. Strange that in modern spoken French the subjunctive is essentially tenseless (does not follow the sequence of tenses 'rules' that Bailey requires of a 'true' subjunctive), but Bailey never mentions this fact (far as I remember), even though he draws French-English connections in at other points in his writing. I think Bailey has got an interesting way of reframing a lot of the traditional ways of approaching grammar, and it might even be useful in teaching some of the concepts. But it seems to me that he has just given the same grammatical phenomena new names, many of them less esthetically pleasing than the traditional names. "processual"? "throwback"? "reversal" (of "was" to "were")? I rather like "should-deletion", but haven't satisfied myself that it always works as an alternate for "subjunctive" -- but that's just out of laziness. I haven't yet taken the trouble to rack my brain over it. Has anyone else out there verified that rule of Bailey's? CJ CalifJim Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004 California Veteran Member 22,389 "There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche Tenses, Grammar, Subjunctives

	julielai  +  73578 Sat, 12 Feb 05 07:55 PM In what ways are the traditional names aesthetically pleasing? Just curious. Most disagreements over academic research are squabbles over definitions. e.g. A researcher would say: The English standard in Place A has declined because of factors A, B, and C. (the erosion of elitist standards, etc etc.) Another researcher would beg to differ: The English standard in Place A has not declined if you take into account factos A, B, and C. (like how we provide education now to students other than elites) julielai Grammar

	CalifJim  +  73619 Sun, 13 Feb 05 06:05 AM I meant to emphasize the ugliness of terms like "processual" and "throwback" more than to emphasize the beauty (?!) of terms like "imperative" and "subjunctive"! CalifJim Grammar, Subjunctives

	MrPedantic  +  73744 Mon, 14 Feb 05 12:44 AM I was going to get back to you on this French connection Did you have any further thoughts about this, JT? As I mentioned before, my question relates to C11 Norman-French pronoun pairs, rather than their modern equivalents. MrP MrPedantic Nouns, Grammar, Pronouns

	MrPedantic  +  75645 Tue, 22 Feb 05 12:36 AM JT, you were going to provide some information about the (C11) Norman-French connection. MrP MrPedantic

	Tou_che  +  460447 Fri, 04 Jan 08 06:30 PM As for me,this idea is too skeptic .I am not native speaker of english but ELT student.We are here to learn english not to be confused. Tou_che Joined on Fri, Jan 4 2008 New Member 05 Learn English