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julielai  +  110481 Sun, 19 Jun 05 04:20 AM
The older prescriptive grammars were simply wrong


I have a silly thought. Shouldn't descriptivists simply describe what prescriptivists do? Who are we (assuming we are all descriptivists) to prescribe how they prescribe? Doesn't that make us prescriptive descriptivists? LOL!



Joined on Sun, Oct 24 2004
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Roro  +  110488 Sun, 19 Jun 05 06:04 AM
Hello julielai ! I like your thought.
The only difference is whether he is aware of his own theory or not, maybe!
Joined on Mon, Apr 11 2005
Regular Member 581
Mister Micawber  +  110517 Sun, 19 Jun 05 09:06 AM

I became curious, MrP, and found reprints of both Murray's and Lowth's grammars available online at www.abebooks.com. Murray is very cheap; Lowth is a little pricey. I haven't yet decided whether I really need a copy: shipping to Japan is always expensive.

MM

Joined on Wed, Aug 4 2004
Yokohama
Veteran Member 30,760
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master-- that's all.'
MrPedantic  +  110548 Sun, 19 Jun 05 10:35 AM
Thank you, Mister M! I had only found costly facsimiles.

I'll also have a root round some London s/h bookshops later this week. It would be interesting to see the beast in question.

MrP
Joined on Tue, Oct 12 2004
Veteran Member 12,592
...opella forensis / adducit febris...
MrPedantic  +  110553 Sun, 19 Jun 05 10:53 AM
...I have a silly thought. Shouldn't descriptivists simply describe what prescriptivists do? Who are we (assuming we are all descriptivists) to prescribe how they prescribe? Doesn't that make us prescriptive descriptivists? ...


A thought experiment:

Grammarian MrA recommends rule X. It is a direct application of Latin rule X, which did not previously apply in English.

On MrA's recommendation, X displaces rule Y and becomes the norm.

Grammarian MrB discerns the misapplication, 200 years later.

Which of these responses by MrB are prescriptive, and which are descriptive?

1. X has displaced Y. X is therefore now the correct usage.

2. MrA was wrong. We must return to Y.

3. MrA was wrong. Y is equally valid.

4. X was once correct. But because of MrA's recommendation, Y is now correct.

5. MrA was guilty of an error.

6. 'Error' has no meaning in this context. 'Correct' has no meaning in this context. Y is the noise that some {Homo sapiens subsp. anglicus} make in situations P, Q, R.

7. MrA was neither wrong nor right. Any language user may instigate language change.

8. Any language user may instigate language change. I may call X an error, and recommend a return to Y. If usage follows my recommendation, Y is once more correct.

MrP
Roro  +  110580 Sun, 19 Jun 05 12:41 PM
Hello paco. Thank you for your reference. It was interesting and helpful.

... Nevertheless, the "project (of standardization of orthography)" was remarkably successful, and by the 18th century, written usage had greatly stabilized, as we today are able with little difficulty to read the works of that period.

... owing to prescrivistic grammarians, I'd add.

(Almost the same ... or much, much more drastic ... situation was in Russia.)
LanguageLover  +  110581 Sun, 19 Jun 05 12:43 PM
Interesting thoughts, friends.
Of course your first option is correct, MrP. However as I said earlier, prespective grammar started with the Latin influence. Nowadays, any grammarians who claims that this usage is right, and nothing more, regardless to the real usage among the speakers of a language, is referred to as a prespectivist.
The article that Julie has found is also interesting. I think the author is right, if you are a foreign language teacher, you have to tell your students about correct and wrong usages. But as long as you are flexible to the language changes, you are considered to be a descriptivist.
I haven't read anything from Crystal, except pieces from his language and linguistics encyclopedia. However, I've listened to some of his interviews with the BBC's Talking about English radio programmes. From what I've gathered through his comments, he is aware of the language change himself, he's a descriptivist. The following 2 paragraphs are taken from one of BBC's programmes:
"Phwoar! Interjections are words which express emotions and some are very old: words like "cooer", "gosh", "phew". You don't get new interjections very often, but one did arrive in the 80's. It was a sort of expression of enthusiastic desire - usually by men about women."
"Well, it's becoming very frequent, in all kinds of television programmes I've heard it used recently. Interestingly, although it was originally a male noise, it's now being used by women. Women are using it back to the men..."
Here, a prespective scholar would say that this usage by women would be inappropriate. That's the difference.
Hope that it helps,


Joined on Fri, Feb 25 2005
Contributing Member 1,507
The similarities among the languages are more than their differences!
Roro  +  110598 Sun, 19 Jun 05 01:09 PM
Hello MrPedantic,

I don't feel like using these strong words, usage, in this context, if I could.
I'd say some people were very sensitive to stylistic differences, and tried to normalize a language.

It's interesting ... what other members are thinking..?
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