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MrPedantic  +  110685 Mon, 20 Jun 05 12:03 AM
Hello Roro

That's an interesting point. Do you think those words have a strong effect because people identify themselves so strongly with the dialect they happen to speak?

(In other words: 'if you call my English incorrect, you're calling me incorrect'.)

MrP
Joined on Tue, Oct 12 2004
Veteran Member 13,616
...opella forensis / adducit febris...
Roro  +  110688 Mon, 20 Jun 05 12:18 AM
Hello MrPedantic,
Yes, that's right. Sometimes other type of conflicts are carried out in the disguise of disputes on linguistic or stylistic matters. At least in 18c, though!

I like your expression:
people identify themselves so strongly with the dialect they happen to speak

... quite penetrating ...!

There're other reasons, too. I'll try to explain them, if there's appropriate occation.
Joined on Mon, Apr 11 2005
Regular Member 581
MrPedantic  +  110689 Mon, 20 Jun 05 12:21 AM
There's a reference to the following comment by Pinker, in the link Paco has kindly provided:

"Imagine you are watching a nature documentary...The voiceover reports...[that] the song of the humpback whale contains several well known errors...What on earth could it mean for the song of the humpback whale to contain an error? Isn't the song of the humpback whale whatever the humpback whale decides to sing?"

I'm not familiar with the song of the humpback whale. But I'm interested in the implications of this passage.

Let's posit Cry A, which the males of a particular species of bird utter as part of the courtship ritual.

Perhaps an individual bird utters A noticeably differently from its fellow males. Perhaps this variant of A doesn't have the desired effect on the female.

Can we describe this variant as an error?

Or take the cry of the juvenile male. If it has not yet learned to utter A as the older males do, can its attempts be described as ungrammatical?

MrP
Roro  +  110696 Mon, 20 Jun 05 01:04 AM
Hello, MrPedantic,

I haven't read S. Pinker yet, to tell the truth. Seems the reference in that site is to his The Language Instinct. I found the following phrase and it surprised me a little bit.

the idea that language is a biological adaptation

It's tough for me to swallow this statement whole now. It's quite new for me!

I've heard that in the middle ages [grammar] was [glamour]. Only educated(?) people knew that ...
How about this?
Roro, 4 yr 142 days ago
And at the very least I would say Cry A was not so glamorous.
Good night!
paco2004  +  110703 Mon, 20 Jun 05 02:04 AM
Actually "glamour" comes from "grammar". It was originally a corrupted form of a Scot word for "grammar" and it also meant "magic". Probably, to most of common people of pre-modern times, skills of writing sentences looked something magical. It would be the reason "glamour" and "spelling" connote "magic" also.

paco
Joined on Wed, Nov 17 2004
Senior Member 4,095
In Japan today even dogs are learning how to bow-wow in English.
Roro, 4 yr 142 days ago
Hi paco, it's for the first time we got the same view, isn't it??
I'm very glad.
Good day!
paco2004  +  110756 Mon, 20 Jun 05 06:21 AM
Yes, I imagine you are full of glamour because you are studying "English glamour" so hard. Wink [;)]

Throughout Medieval Age, "grammar" meant "study of Latin literature". A phrase "English grammar" was first used by Ben Johnson in 1600 as the title of his English grammar book.

OED says:
"In early English use "grammar" meant only Latin grammar, as Latin was the only language that was taught grammatically. In the 16th c. there are some traces of a perception that the word might have an extended application to other languages; but it was not before the 17th c. that it became so completely a generic term that there was any need to speak explicitly of "Latin grammar". Ben Jonson's book, written c1600, was app. the first to treat of ‘English grammar’ under that name.
As above defined, "grammar" is a body of statements of fact—a ‘science’; but a large portion of it may be viewed as consisting of rules for practice, and so as forming an "art". The old-fashioned definition of grammar as "the art of speaking and writing a language correctly" is from the modern point of view in one respect too narrow, because it applies only to a portion of this branch of study; in another respect, it is too wide, and was so even from the older point of view, because many questions of "correctness" in language were recognized as outside the province of grammar: e.g. the use of a word in a wrong sense, or a bad pronunciation or spelling, would not have been called "a grammatical mistake". At the same time, it was and is customary, on grounds of convenience, for books professedly treating of grammar to include more or less information on points not strictly belonging to the subject."

Enjoy a glamorous Monday!

paco
Roro  +  110759 Mon, 20 Jun 05 06:39 AM
Thank you paco, a very glamorous Monday to you, too Heart [L] !

I've checked my OLD, Liddell & Scott, but there was nothing interesting! :)
Your information was new to me, absolutely. How interesting. It makes me ponder over my previous knowledge.

Thank you again and see you later!
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