pretty much perfect

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RayH

#543406 Sat, 19 Jul 08 05:02 AM

Huevos
but to be perfect is a state, hence something is either perfect or it is not.

Not to be contentious, but this isn't exactly true. I can say "nearly perfect", "almost perfect", etc.

Here is a quote from answers.com
Some people maintain that perfect is an absolute term like chief and prime, and therefore cannot be modified by more, quite, relatively, and other qualifiers of degree. But the qualification of perfect has many reputable precedents (most notably in the preamble to the U.S. Constitution in the phrase “in order to form a more perfect Union”). By the same token, perfect often means “ideal for the purposes,” as in There could be no more perfect spot for the picnic, where modification by degree makes perfect sense.

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?s=perfect&gwp=13

I'm afraid N2G's question (and now mine) has not yet been answered.

RayH

Joined on Sat, Mar 22 2008

CA, USA

Regular Member (649)

Native speaker of U. S. English. Not a grammar expert.

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#543408 Sat, 19 Jul 08 05:25 AM

I append below 2 usage notes from dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/perfect) for perusal of those interested:-

—Usage note A few usage guides still object to the use of comparison words such as more, most, nearly, almost, and rather with perfect on the grounds that perfect describes an absolute, yes-or-no condition that cannot logically be said to exist in varying degrees. The English language has never agreed to this limitation. Since its earliest use in the 13th century, perfect has, like almost all adjectives, been compared, first in the now obsolete forms perfecter and perfectest, and more recently with more, most, and similar comparison words: the most perfect arrangement of color and line imaginable. Perfect is compared in most of its general senses in all varieties of speech and writing. After all, one of the objectives of the writers of the U.S. Constitution was "to form a more perfect union." See also complete, unique.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

Usage Note: Some people maintain that perfect is an absolute term like chief and prime, and therefore cannot be modified by more, quite, relatively, and other qualifiers of degree. But the qualification of perfect has many reputable precedents (most notably in the preamble to the U.S. Constitution in the phrase "in order to form a more perfect Union"). By the same token, perfect often means "ideal for the purposes," as in There could be no more perfect spot for the picnic, where modification by degree makes perfect sense. See Usage Notes at absolute, equal, unique.

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RayH

#543410 Sat, 19 Jul 08 05:35 AM

Quite right. But, lest we lose track of the original question, why is it OK to say "more perfect", "nearly perfect", "almost perfect", and yes "pretty much perfect" but not "pretty perfect"?

RayH

CalifJim

#543450 Sat, 19 Jul 08 09:45 AM

If you take the point of view that perfect is an 'absolute' (non-gradable) adjective, an adjective of which there can be no degrees -- a point of view being disputed in this thread, but for the sake of argument, let's say we take this viewpoint -- then more perfect is impossible because it expresses a degree of perfection, a quality which, by the original supposition, does not occur in degrees. Given that it is absolute, it is as pointless to talk about more or less perfection as to talk about more or less nothingness, or -- to pick a more famous example -- to talk about some pigs being more equal than others. more perfect, rather perfect, pretty perfect, a little perfect, fairly perfect, very perfect, and somewhat perfect are all "banned" within this viewpoint because all express degrees of perfection.

Nevertheless, it is not contradictory, still remaining within the same point of view, to speak of conditions which are closer to or farther from the absolute (non-gradable) state of perfection. This is not at all the same as talking about different degrees of perfection. In this group we have nearly perfect, almost perfect, far from perfect, very nearly perfect, just about perfect, and pretty much perfect.

pretty is close in meaning to fairly. It belongs in the first ("banned") group because it expresses a degree of a (gradable) quality: pretty good, pretty small, pretty old, pretty shabby

pretty much is close in meaning to just about or almost. It has to be thought of as a two-word idiom not exactly derivable from the meanings of the two words that compose it. It belongs in the second group because it expresses a distance from an (absolute) quality: pretty much finished, pretty much empty, pretty much intact, pretty much equal

______________

If you take the point of view, on the other hand, that perfect is not an absolute adjective (i.e., is a gradable adjective), then all the adverbs of degree can apply: fairly perfect, very perfect, less perfect, etc. I've never, personally, taken this point of view. In fact, I was told in grade school that the "more perfect union" spoken of in the Constitution should really have been a "more nearly perfect union". Apparently that lesson has stuck with me. Smile

Yet common sense dictates that some expressions which take perfect to be gradable have become standard idioms in English and therefore must be accepted. But I don't think I am alone in saying that pretty perfect is not one of them.

CalifJim

Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004

California

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"There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche

Adverbs, Expressions, Idioms, Verbs

New2grammar

#543453 Sat, 19 Jul 08 10:01 AM

CJ, nothing is impossible to you Smile

. It's a really amazing answer! Thanks.

New2grammar

Joined on Tue, Nov 21 2006

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Who wants to go sailing around the world with me?

RayH

#543549 Sat, 19 Jul 08 03:51 PM

A very clear explanation CJ. Thanks.

RayH

Marius Hancu

#543554 Sat, 19 Jul 08 04:02 PM

>In fact, I was told in grade school that the "more perfect union" spoken of in the Constitution should really have been a "more nearly perfect union".

You had great teachers, CJ.

Marius Hancu

Joined on Wed, Apr 26 2006

Montreal, Canada

Veteran Member (11,673)

Yoong Liat

#543619 Sat, 19 Jul 08 07:14 PM

New2grammar
Huevos
hence something is either perfect or it is not.

If it's either yes or no, why is pretty much perfect OK? It's really confusing to me

Purists point out that anything that is perfect, in the sense 'flawless, complete in all respects', must be absolutely so, and that it is therefore incorrect to use qualifying words such as more, most, so, and very.

It is quite permissible, however, to speak of one thing as being more nearly perfect than another.

(The Right Word at the Right Time)

Yoong Liat

Joined on Mon, Sep 4 2006

Singapore

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Yoong Liat

Grammar

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#543804 Sun, 20 Jul 08 04:41 AM

RayH
Quite right. But, lest we lose track of the original question, why is it OK to say "more perfect", "nearly perfect", "almost perfect", and yes "pretty much perfect" but not "pretty perfect"?

If I engage myself in academic writing, I would avoid both types of usages, and if I must use either, I'll use it with a qualification noting the existence of the other.

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