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Property V. Title

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Latest post Thu, Oct 18 2007 2:19 AM by Anonymous. 8 replies.
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Vincent Ding  +  99129 Sat, 14 May 05 04:30 AM
I seem to have come across both the following two expressions "property in the goods" and "title to the goods". i'm wondering whether both are correct expressions, and if so whether there is any difference in their meanings. I know that jus ad rem or real right is a complicated thing in civil law. but in raising the above question, my primary concern is how to express the ownership of a thing.
Vincent Ding
Joined on Fri, Apr 29 2005
Full Member 182
Mister Micawber  +  105801 Sun, 05 Jun 05 02:54 PM

They seem to be something different, but I can find nothing definitive. Here is an excerpt from a contract I found (I presume that 'ownership' = 'title'?):


3. PASSING OF PROPERTY
(a) The ownership and the property in the goods shall remain in the Company until all monies due under the Contract have been paid to the Company.
(b)Until the property and ownership in the goods has passed to the Purchaser as aforesaid, the Company shall be entitled to insure the goods in the Company's name and at the expense of the Purchaser.
(c) Until the ownership and the property in the goods has passed to the Purchaser, the Purchaser shall not sell, let on hire, mortgage, charge, pledge, transfer as security or part with possession of the goods or purport to do so.
(d) Until the property and the goods has passed to the Purchaser as aforesaid, the Purchaser shall keep the goods in good and marketable condition and shall, except in case of emergency. procure that all repairs or replacements which may be required to the goods shall be effected by the Company or its duly appointed Agents at the cost of the Purchaser.

Mister Micawber
Joined on Wed, Aug 4 2004
Yokohama
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'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master-- that's all.'
Related discussions
Guest, 4 yr 162 days ago
As a term 'title' does not refer limitedly to ownership. Ownership may be one title underwhich goods may be held. goods may also be held under a title of lease.
When you purchase a cae under a hire purchase agreement, the buyer pays installments to the seller on a monthly basis. until all installments are fully paid up the buyer is considered a lessee and holds a title as a lessee, meaning that he does not have full ownership of the car. Once all installments are fully paid, then he aquires the tilte of owner and hold the car in full ownership 'piena propieta'.
Forbes  +  122395 Fri, 29 Jul 05 02:19 PM

"Title" implies that you are the person legally entitled to dispose of the goods to a third party. "Ownership" (where it is separated from title) implies that you are the person entitled to use the thing owned.

Contracts for the sale of goods often contain a "retention of title" clause. This protects the seller and makes it clear that until the goods are paid for they cannot pass into the possesion of, say, a trustee in banruptcy or a landlord distraining for rent.
Forbes
Joined on Thu, Jun 16 2005
Regular Member 895
TimKowal  +  127075 Mon, 15 Aug 05 12:51 AM
I think this is the right track. One can have a property right even though one does not own title.  This is evident in landlord/tenant relationships.  Although the landlord will own title, the tenant has certain substantial property rights, even absent ownership of title. 
TimKowal
Joined on Sun, Aug 14 2005
Orange, CA
New Member 29
Diane Sexius  +  127664 Tue, 16 Aug 05 09:03 PM

One cold morning about 4;30 a.m my  brother (Willie) called  me. and ask us to take him to the bus station 

My brother's (Willie) girlfriend had put him out and he ask us (boyfriend) to come take him to the bus station because he was moving back to New Orleans, and  that I coul have the car. My brother gave me the title to the car after I got there. While we were waiting to go to the station Mike my friend tried to crank the car but it woul not crank.

We took my brother to the bus station,and I did not hear from him for over a year

 Willie had talked with his friend guy and my older brother as i learned later about the car and how I had got the car runing put new tires on it ,new muffler,broken out window replaced, radiator replaced, transmission and oil leak fixed,new battery, tuneup, distrubutor cap.aircondition and heater.new paint job.new interio.

Willie learns that I have sone all this to the car and he wants it back.so while i was not home i later learned that Willie had roam thru my apartment until he found extra key and title that I thought i had hid.

wiillie takes the car and I am hurt because I see that he only gave me the car so that he could come back and take it  after I fixed it up.

Well, he does and he gets picked up for no licsence .he has never had any and he is 47 years old. There is more What are my rights?
Diane Sexius
Joined on Tue, Aug 16 2005
New Member 01
Forbes  +  127697 Tue, 16 Aug 05 11:37 PM

 TimKowal wrote:
  Although the landlord will own title, the tenant has certain substantial property rights, even absent ownership of title. 

Regrettably the position with respect to land is more complicated. Concurrent interests may exist in land, each with its own title. Thus a landlord will have his title, but the tenant equally will have his title deriving from the lease.
Forbes
TimKowal  +  128081 Thu, 18 Aug 05 07:09 AM
Gifts can be tricky.  Generally you're going to have a hard time showing superior right over the "giver," since you didn't pay anything. 

The good news is that you certainly have a right in the increased value of the car due to your repairs and improvements.

You might still have some recourse in getting the whole car, it will just depend on details and the judge.  Is the title in your name?  What were the terms of the gift?  (was there any mention of payment? did he give you the car in return for something?)  The fact that he did not nor ever have a license may help you. 

But in a nutshell, the only thing you could really bank on is the cost of the improvements you made.  Anything on top of that, just cross your fingers.
TimKowal
Anonymous, 2 yr 36 days ago

The reason why you are having difficulty with this clause is becuase it is intended specifically to deliniate between ownership (inthis case possession) and title. Specifically, this is a "retention of title" clause. This type of clause is used by sellers to ensure that title (a legal right to possession, ie defensible in court) remains with the seller (even though possession is with the buyer) until such time as certain conditions (usaully full payment) have been fufilled.

Note that the enforceabiltity of such clauses is dependant upon proper drafting and courts usually interprete them quite strictly.

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