Prouncing "th" as "f" - British accents ?

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J:
Hi,
Can anyone tell me, in England, is pronouncing "th" as "f", e.g. in a word like "something" part of a particular English accent, or would it be more considered slang? If it's part of an accent, which area would it come from?
Also, the same with adding a "k" to the end of words, e.g. same word, "something" I've heard it pronounced "somthingk". Again, would this be a regional variation, or slang?
any info appreciated,
KM.
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Adrian Bailey:
[nq:1]Can anyone tell me, in England, is pronouncing "th" as "f", e.g. in a word like "something" part of a particular English accent, or would it be more considered slang? If it's part of an accent, which area would it come from?[/nq]
There are four groups of th-fronters:

1. people who are born unable to pronounce th
2. children who haven't fully developed their speech
3. less-educated adults (in this case it can be classed as "slang")
4. people from certain areas, most notably the Thames estuary (eg. Cockneys)(in this case it can be classed as "dialect")
Afaiui, nearly all th-fronters are able to pronounce th properly - it's just an effort for them to do so.
Th-fronting can sometimes be found in writing too: I recently saw a post where "ethernet" was written as "efernet", for example.
[nq:1]Also, the same with adding a "k" to the end of words, e.g. same word, "something" I've heard it pronounced "somthingk". Again, would this be a regional variation, or slang?[/nq]
I think this is a similar case.
Adrian

Vote Kerry/Edwards and save your life.
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Ross Howard:
[nq:1]There are four groups of th-fronters: 4. people from certain areas, most notably the Thames estuary (eg. Cockneys) (in this case it can be classed as "dialect")[/nq]
Depressingly, it's also a feature of the postmodern Manchester accent that I've previously referred to as "Nu Salford". This results in such miserable mockeries of Tru Manc as "Newton 'Eaf".
Ryan "The Ex-New George Best" Giggs is a typical culprit.

Ross Howard
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Steve Howarth:
[nq:2]Can anyone tell me, in England, is pronouncing "th" as ... part of an accent, which area would it come from?[/nq]
[nq:1]There are four groups of th-fronters: 1. people who are born unable to pronounce th 2. children who haven't fully ... "dialect") Afaiui, nearly all th-fronters are able to pronounce th properly - it'sjust an effort for them to do so.[/nq]
When I made a similar point (I phrased it as "laziness") in AEU a few months ago, I was shot down in flames. At a rough guess, I'd say that between one half and three-quarters of the secondary school pupils I teach in Carlisle (300 miles from the Thames estuary) now say "f" instead of "th". I might have added 5th and 6th categories: people who want to sound like those from the Thames estuary, and those who seem to think that to pronounce words correctly is posh or uncool, and who therefore affect a different pronunciation (didn't the artist formerly known as "Nigel Kennedy" go through a phase of this?).
Steve Howarth
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John Lawler:
[nq:2]Can anyone tell me, in England, is pronouncing "th" as ... part of an accent, which area would it come from?[/nq]
[nq:1]There are four groups of th-fronters: 1. people who are born unable to pronounce th 2. children who haven't fully ... can sometimes be found in writing too: I recently saw a post where "ethernet" was written as "efernet", for example.[/nq]
A question arises as to whether /D/ is also fronted to /v/, as in

This'll do. vs Thistle dew.
Ditto "that", "the", "other", "either", etc.
Do vey all get de-dentalized to /v/, parallel to /T/ -> /f/?
[nq:2]Also, the same with adding a "k" to the end ... "somthingk". Again, would this be a regional variation, or slang?[/nq]
[nq:1]I think this is a similar case.[/nq]
This is a devoiced version of the (N) ~ (Ng) alternation being discussed in a different thread. Final devoicink is a very common phenomenon; silence is voiceless and devoicink final stops is just assimilation. It's the standard rule in German; there are no word-final voiced stops or fricatives in any Standard High German word, regardless of the spelling.

-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler U Michigan Linguistics Dept "A man does not know what he is saying until he knows what he is not sayink." G.K. Chesterton, 1936, "As I Was Saying"
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Mark Barratt:
[nq:1]A question arises as to whether /D/ is also fronted to /v/, as in This'll do. vs Thistle dew. Ditto "that", "the", "other", "either", etc. Do vey all get de-dentalized to /v/, parallel to /T/ -> /f/?[/nq]
An interesting question. Listening to an imaginary Cockney in my head, I think that this does happen in post-vocalic positions (other, either), but in initial position (that, the) the /D/ actually becomes a devoiced (d) (or if your prefer, an unaspirated (t)). Of course, listening to a real Cockney would be more scientific, but experimental science is out of fashion this season.

Regards,
Mark Barratt
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John Dean:
[nq:2]There are four groups of th-fronters:[/nq]
[nq:2]4. people from certain areas, most notably the Thames estuary (eg. Cockneys) (in this case it can be classed as "dialect")[/nq]
[nq:1]Depressingly, it's also a feature of the postmodern Manchester accent that I've previously referred to as "Nu Salford". This results in such miserable mockeries of Tru Manc as "Newton 'Eaf". Ryan "The Ex-New George Best" Giggs is a typical culprit.[/nq]
He's Welsh innit?

John Dean
Oxford
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Ross Howard:
[nq:1]He's Welsh innit?[/nq]
Yeah, Like Zola Budd was English. Have you heard Ryan Giggs speak? Like he's so Welsh-sounding he makes the Gallagher Bruvvers sound like Dylan Thomas. (Er, something went very wrong with that image, but you know what I mean.)
Any road, 'ang about, like..
Gorrit!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/9200/audio/ 924113 giggs int.ram

Pure Rhondda, innit.

Ross Howard
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Jacqui:
John Dean wibbled
[nq:2]Ryan "The Ex-New George Best" Giggs is a typical culprit.[/nq]
[nq:1]He's Welsh innit?[/nq]
So's Catherine Zeta-Jones. But you'd never know it these days.

Jac
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