question on subjunctive again

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Believer  #364167  Sun, 13 May 07 11:48 AM

Hi,

My understanding on the use of subjuntive is as crudely as it may sound is that a person is trying to write as closely as possible (as best to approximate the content) the speech rendered previously. Now, when I was looking at the us.geocities.com website for its online help on subjunctive in the section called "The Imperative," I saw these two among other examples. My question is "What make one right and the other wrong when they have used different verbs to report the speeches?" Who is figuring out the tone and emotion involved to make the necessary distinction whether that person who made the speech has asked or ordered?

1. He said, "Speak up, please!"

2. He asked me to speak up.

5. Mother said, "Get your hair combed"

6. Mother ordered me to get my hair combed.   

  
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Marius Hancu  #364184  Sun, 13 May 07 12:21 PM
say: neutral
asked: more demanding
ordered: even more demanding

  
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Clive  #364288  Sun, 13 May 07 03:53 PM

Hi,

My understanding on the use of subjunctive is as crudely as it may sound is that a person is trying to write as closely as possible (as best to approximate the content) the speech rendered previously. Now, when I was looking at the us.geocities.com website for its online help on subjunctive in the section called "The Imperative," I saw these two among other examples. My question is "What make one right and the other wrong when they have used different verbs to report the speeches?" Who is figuring out the tone and emotion involved to make the necessary distinction whether that person who made the speech has asked or ordered? The person reporting the speech makes this judgement.

1. He said, "Speak up, please!"

2. He asked me to speak up. The direct speech 'please' suggest a request, so the writer chose'ask'.'

5. Mother said, "Get your hair combed"

6. Mother ordered me to get my hair combed. No direct 'please'. You might also say 'Mother told me to . . . '.

In #1 and #5, 'said' just focuses on giving the words that were used.

You could also write #2 and #5 thus -

#2 He asked that I speak up.

#5 Mother ordered that I comb my hair.

Best wishes, Clive 

  
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Bokeh  #364335  Sun, 13 May 07 05:12 PM
Hello Believer,

This discussion really is redundant since there are very few living instances in English where the subjuctive and the indicative take different forms (and many people even want to dispute those).

If you were to look at language like Spanish1 which does have a living subjunctive you would find  that in reported speech (not quoted speech) any imperative (positive or negative) is always reported using the subjunctive form of the verb.

Also, if you were, for example, to want this sentence: "He asked me to speak up." to have a more subjunctive feel in English you could modify it thus: "He asked that I speak up."

[1 Not that the rules of another language have anything to do with English but sometimes they can act as a guide.]
  
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Believer  #364503  Mon, 14 May 07 12:41 AM

Sorry. Let me make a correction. It should be "its online help on reported speech," not on subjunctive.

I was looking at the us.geocities.com for its online help on reported speech, not on subjuntive.

  
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