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Question on using the word 'better'

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learner  #34111  Tue, 22 Jun 04 02:16 AM
Hi Miriam,

Actually "had better" is NOT a modal verb. Some authors call it a "modal idiom" (The New Fowler's Modern English Usage edited by R.W. Burchfield), or a idiomatic modal.

There are many English Grammar websites that talk about "had better" as a Modal Verb.

For example:
http://www.englishpage.com/modals/modalintro.html
It is said that "For the purposes of this tutorial, we have included some expressions which are not Modal Verbs including had better, have to and have got to. These expressions are closely related to Modals in meaning and are often interchanged with them."

So, you are right, it is not a modal verb. But it is "treated" like one.. Wink [;)]

  
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Pemmican  #34113  Tue, 22 Jun 04 02:30 AM
It seems that even linguists are not at one with each other - and yes, the boundaries here are sort of blurred. It certainly depends on one's own view how to treat these modals or modal idioms.
I'd say that in these cases, there is a special elbowroom; I for myself would classify "had better" as a modal as it especially grammatically has the characteristics of a modal, but I do also accept that it's called a modal idiom though.
  
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miriam  #34114  Tue, 22 Jun 04 02:46 AM
Confusion in this topic is understandable. I remember having had a hard time when I had to study the classification of such verbs according to different authors/grammarians.

Quirk et al., for example, consider the following verbs modals: can, could, may, might, shall, should, will, would, must, ought to, used to, need, dare.
Hugh Gettin and David Brazil offer similar classifications.

Eckersley & Eckersley call modals "special finites". They say there are twelve of them (be, have, can, do, shall, will, may, must, need, ought to, dare, used to). They also say that twenty-four is also a possible number if we consider "other derived forms (excluding the imperative) for tense, number and person, viz. am, is, are, was, were; has, had; does, did; should; would; could; might.
I personally find this classification a bit messy.

Celce-Murcia & Larsen-Freeman speak of "modals" (can, could, will, shall, must, should, ought to, would, may, might) and "phrasal modals" (be able to, be going to, be about to, have to, have got to, be to, used to, be allowed to, be permitted to).

Some authors (Stockwell, I think, among them) speak of "modals" and "semi-modals".

R. A. Jacobs (tihs is the one I prefer) speaks of "core modals" (may, might, can, could, will, would, shall, should, must, ought to, need, dare) and "periphrastic modals" (multiword verb idioms). In the category of periphrastic modals he includes forms such as be likely to, be due to, be apt to, be willing to, be unable to, besides the ones mention by Celce-Murcia as phrasal modals. He does mention had better and would rather as being "similar" to core modals; yet he doesn't say they *are* modals.

So, I guess it all comes down to what author you follow -if you choose to follow one in particular. Probably this is no big deal really, it's just that I'm always paying attention to tiny details... perhaps too much attention. Don't let me bother you with this any longer. Smile [:)]
The day *I* write a grammar book, I'll call things anything I like! ~chuckles~

Miriam

  
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Pemmican  #34121  Tue, 22 Jun 04 03:25 AM
*hahaha*
Don't worry, Miriam -
you don't bother me with topics like these - I find them very interesting and they help you seeing special things from different points of view.
A.S. Hornby btw also says that there are 24 forms, which he calls "anomalous finites".

The best way is following one of these authors particularly to have a basis - but also tolerate the other ones, so you won't have any severe problems Wink [;)])

Now, I'm off - hope you'll all have a wonderful day!
Pem
  
miriam  #34122  Tue, 22 Jun 04 03:31 AM
Thank you for an interesting discussion, Pem and learner.

Have sweet dreams, Pemmican Smile [:)]

  
taiwandave  #34143  Tue, 22 Jun 04 11:29 AM
I checked in a new book, "The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language", which is intended as a rival to Quirk. Following is an excerpt concerning "had better". I don't understand most of it, but presumably Pemmican & Miriam will. I was surprised to see that dropping the "had", as in, "You better go now," is considered by these authors to be acceptable usage!


HAD BETTER/BEST

These are idioms containing the auxiliary “had”:

I had better tell them.
I hadn't better tell them.
Had I better tell them?

"Had" has the reduced form 'd, but the reduction can go one stage further, with "had" dropping altogether, and only the “better” remaining: "You better go now." The "had" does not have a past time meaning: in [the above examples] we are concerned with what is the best course of action now, not at some time in the past. This weakens the relationship of the "had" to non-idiomatic "have", and it is questionable whether it should be regarded synchronically as a form of “have” or as a distinct lexeme.

If we take “had” as a form of “have”, it will have property [M], preterite with modal remoteness rather than past time meaning. If we take it as a distinct lexeme, we will say that it has been properly reanalyzed as a present tense form (like “must” and “ought”), and it will have property [J], no agreement. In either case, it has only primary forms, Idea [I], and takes only a bare infinitival complement, Kiss [K]. On these grounds it undoubtedly should be included among the non-central members of the modal auxiliary class.

  
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learner  #34164  Tue, 22 Jun 04 02:38 PM
When you write your own Grammar Book, Miriam, let us know! I am sure it will be very useful!

  
miriam  #34183  Tue, 22 Jun 04 04:15 PM
learner,
I'll let you know... if that ever happens. ~winks~

Dave,
who is the author of the book, please? and what do the capital letters in square brackets refer to?

  
taiwandave  #34212  Tue, 22 Jun 04 05:38 PM
Miriam,

The book is by Rodney Huddleston and Geoffrey Pullum.

The capital letters in square brackets refer to a list of criteria on the preceding page concerning auxiliary verbs vs. modal auxiliaries. Here's the list:

AUXILIARY PROPERTIES
Angel [A] Primary verb negation.
Beer [B] Subject-auxiliary inversion
Coffee [C] Emphatic polarity
Drinks [D] Stranding
Email [E] Exclusion of "do" in code
Rose [F] Precede adverb/quantifier
Gift [G] Negative forms
Cool [H] Reduced forms

MODAL AUXILIARY PROPERTIES
Idea [I] Only primary forms
[J] No agreement
Kiss [K] Only bare infinitival complement
Heart [L] Can occur in remote apodosis
[M] Modally remote preterite in main clause

Examples are given for each item which I've omitted for brevity.
  
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