Rather than he do it

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paco2004

#139090 Mon, 19 Sep 05 05:11 AM

Hello Teachers

'A Communicative Grammar of English' gives a sentence below as an example of 'a bare infinitive clause with a subject'.
Rather than Joan do it, I'd prefer to do the job myself.
This construct is new to me. Does the sentence above sound more natural to you than the sentence below?
Rather than Joan does it, I'd prefer to do the job myself.
Could you give me more information about 'a bare infinitive clause with a subject'? For example, could you give me any other types of sentences where 'a bare infinitive clause with a subject' is used?

paco

paco2004

Joined on Wed, Nov 17 2004

Senior Member (4,095)

In Japan today even dogs are learning how to bow-wow in English.

Grammar, Clauses, Infinitive clauses

CalifJim

#139134 Mon, 19 Sep 05 06:58 AM

Short answer: "Rather than Joan do it" sounds much more natural than "Rather than Joan does it". In fact, I don't see myself ever using "does" there at all!

I need to think for a while to give you a longer answer to the last part of your question.

CJ

CalifJim

Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004

California

Veteran Member (16,966)

"There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche

komountain

#139211 Mon, 19 Sep 05 11:33 AM

Wow, I've learned one more thing about English. Thank you, Paco and CJ. What is missing, though, is an explanation about why the bare infinitive verb is used there. It's rather unusual, isn't it? Can anybody offer your expertise on this?

Paco, regarding your last question, let me try.

1. It is [essential/necessary/imperative/important/vital/desirable/best/...] that S V ...

2. [verbs or nouns with the concept of demand, whether forceful or weak] that S V...

= [order/command/demand/require/request/ask/recommend/advise/suggest/insist/declare/plead/

instruct/necessitate/prefer...] that S V ...

*If any of these verbs don't have the concept of demand, they do not choose a root form.'suggest'

and 'insist' are good examples.

3. [on condition/with the intent] that S V ... *Note: The root form of a verb is optional.

4. lest that S V ...

.........................................

A few example sentences are retrieved from my personal database.

[vital]
It is vital that a record of the past be kept so that people have a sense of their history.

[ask] She asked her name not be identified.

[necessitate]
The dog's declining health necessitated that he be administered medication daily.

[ensure]
Being a rebel was one way for Mel Gibson to ensure that he not get lost in
such a large brood.

I hope this is what you want, Paco.The list could be lengthened by others.

Have a great day!

komountain

Joined on Mon, Nov 8 2004

Full Member (269)

Verbs, Nouns

MrPedantic

#139477 Mon, 19 Sep 05 11:54 PM

I can imagine saying "rather than have Joan do it, I'd prefer to do it myself"; but the "bare infinitive" version sounds quite strange to me.

Is it AmE? How does it parse?

MrP

MrPedantic

Joined on Wed, Oct 13 2004

Veteran Member (12,053)

...opella forensis / adducit febris...

Eimai_Anglos

#139485 Tue, 20 Sep 05 12:09 AM

It is a correct form but you won't find many native English speakers using it, even in writing. We'd phrase it some other way.

Eimai_Anglos

Joined on Thu, Jun 23 2005

Cheshire, England

Full Member (454)

Martin - native English speaker and technical author.

MrPedantic

#139505 Tue, 20 Sep 05 12:59 AM

Rather than Joan do it, I'd prefer to do it myself

It sounds strange to me. For instance, what pronoun would we use instead of "Joan"?

1. ?Rather than she do it, I'd prefer to do it myself.

2. ?Rather than her do it, I'd prefer to do it myself.

How do we parse these?

MrP

MrPedantic

Nouns, Pronouns

khoff

#139531 Tue, 20 Sep 05 02:29 AM

"Rather than Joan do it..." sounds very strange to me too. I wouldn't claim it as an American variation! I would say "rather than have Joan do it..." (or "rather than have her do it...").

khoff

Joined on Sun, Mar 6 2005

Denver, Colorado, USA, Earth

Senior Member (2,569)

Native speaker of American English (but not a grammar expert)

CalifJim

#139532 Tue, 20 Sep 05 02:30 AM

Instead of "Joan", use "she" (or rephrase!). Still, "her" works, too. The "rather than" construction usually doesn't have an expressed subject, though, does it? That way, 99% of the time, we are not burdened with making that choice. This seems an informal way of talking.

Rather than wait for help, I think I'll do it myself.
Rather than sit around like a useless dummy, he got busy and helped with the chores.
They decided to walk rather than take the train.

CJ

CalifJim

Constructions

CalifJim

#139534 Tue, 20 Sep 05 02:39 AM

I can imagine saying "rather than have Joan do it, I'd prefer to do it myself"; but the "bare infinitive" version sounds quite strange to me.

And what, pray tell, is "have", but a bare infinitive? Smile [:)]

I think your objection, Mr. P., is not the syntax (i.e., the bare infinitive), but (perhaps) the semantics!
On the other hand, maybe your ear wants the subject of the bare infinitive always to be understood as the same as the subject of the main clause. Tongue Tied [:S]

CalifJim

Clauses

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